Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.
It's worth mentioning that Zuyong link + Haidao is not the only way to play IA.
Zuyongs are already discounted compared to ur-vanilla-HI in Brigadas (and their direct YJ counterpart in ShangJi) due to low PH
The problem is that Zuyong core isn't even a particularly viable way to play IA. And it should be viable.
Especially given this intro fluff:
"In the Chang Sheng Chun, or the Invincible Army, lies the military force of Yu Jing: the power to deploy in combat numerous heavily armoured infantry troops.
The Invincible Army was born during the military reform made by Minister Tseng Huan. They wanted to change the current army model of the State, based on large quantities of poorly trained light troops, for a more modern and effective one. Military research was improved and focussed on the development of body protection. They managed to produce stronger and tougher servo-powered armours. Many camps and training centres were built, with the best instructors of the Human Sphere. In a short time, Yu Jing had a very strong highly disciplined force, able to carry out the most complex tactical manoeuvres. Nowadays, the Invincibles have become an excellent attacking force because, though they were trained by foreign instructors, they have never forgotten their Chinese inheritance, turning them into formidable close combat fighters. Their precise discipline, order and tactical ability are both singular and excellent. Due to their appearance and reputation, they really do appear invincible in combat."
And due to their low BS, and low ARM, and low WIP... The direct YJ comparison to Brigadas/ORCs is the Wu Ming, not the Shang Ji.
But why? Full HI/HI equivalent links are not really viable at the moment anywhere, aside from maybe Riot Girls (frenzy discounts, spammy army) and Hollow Men (comically minmaxed stats). HI teams are kept in check by CB as you can see with HospiMagisters and their support being nerfed.
Just because you can do 15 order group meme doesnt mean that you should.
Do you want them to be viable or to be true to fluff?
according to fluff every unit in Infinity, even basic infantry, is a badass battle hardened operator and not a food for Krakots and Libertoses that they are on the table
Maybe the HI viable teams should be with the HI specialist faction, instead of being in Nomads? Maybe the ridiculously pointed ultra efficient HI should belong to YJ? Crazy idea, I know
I don't think I've ever read fluff indicating that Zhanshi are badass battle hardened operators. Decent operators pulled from the ranks of regular infantry yes, spetsnaz levels of killercool.... uhhhh.
Fuckin AdmiralJCJF beat me to it, I read through 15 pages of shitposts and dead horses to post this up;
Change how CC is costed. For 1 point, give that Zanshi CC 18 or so. He's still not going to use it, and it lets it be a legitimate deterrent to CC units. Maybe one day he janks into CC with a suppressing Fusilier instead of losing to it in a gunfight and actually uses the stat, but most of the time, it makes the "CC subtheme" within Yu Jing mean something while simultaneously being unlikely to skew the results of many interactions on the table.
It's not vacuum you want your space combatants to have BTS against (though the air-tight seals really help against the B in BTS), it's the radiation.
I believe the general theme with IA is that the direct combat units warrant the expensive powered armour, but their baggage train does not. I suspect that the Doctors, Engineers, remote support and base guards are only meant to see battle if something's gone wrong. Unfortunately, Infinity makes the model of a separate combat and support unit excessively inefficient because CASEVACing a downed Zuyong back to the medic costs even more Orders than getting him to the front in the first place. For fixing this particular issue in N4, I'd 1. Allow Engineer to be declared using the same "Screw your status effects" conditions as Reset so HI Engineers aren't a complete joke, and 2. Add a debuffed Hacking Program version of Doctor, since the second wound on those armour systems are meant to come from improved medical systems built into the armour anyway, no sense why the Doc shouldn't be able to control that remotely, and it would provide a counterbalance to the dangers posed by the Hackable trait without digging into the rules mire that is Supportware.
Cool but if they go super-optimal, make Zuyongs Frenzy, drop CC and PH to 10 and bring down cost dramatically, making them the best basic HI in the game, people still would cite fluff text from 5 years ago how it is not in line with their idea of a trained trooper and not YJ style or whatever and a sign that CB clearly hates Yu Jing.
Or maybe an entire category of units shouldn't need to be super-optimised to be considered highly competitive when you take more than a couple of them in a list?
Unfortunately that would require a massive shake up and a 180 change in the core game design of Infinity.
So, you're saying is that factions like MO and IA should not exist, but instead every faction should be built around a core of LI supported by REMs and large amounts of SK?
It works quite well at the moment. Mostly.
So... IA and MO work quite well as designed except that for their design to work well it needs a 180 degrees change to core game design. I'm not sure I am able to follow what you're trying to say.
I mean, I don't agree with either of those two contradicting statements.
No, I meant the game in general works quite well as designed and developed, even when taking hits from the proliferation of mixed fireteams and FAT2.
MO and IA are just design mistakes stemming from the desire to make "elite" and fluffy armies.
Swinging pendulum in the other direction gets you HospiMagisters - and I dont know about you, but I'd rather dumpster all my minis than seeing that monstorsity ever again on the other side of the table
So YJ players have to suffer because they thought their HI gimmick meant something while actually being punished for that (while nevertheless Nomads can field competitive HI links somehow) and on top of that have to put up with Uprising and being told their faction "needs design space so we are gonna take all these unit away from you" and then being fed more useless HI crap that offers no new "design"
I wonder why the YJ community is pissed and doesn't trust CB anymore, they have absolutely no basis for that.
Okay, that explains it. Thanks for clarifying.
Sorry for being very middle-roady, but HospiMagis have three things where I consider the current pricing doesn't reflect performance; melee, fury and HI.
If we look at those and rebake without going overboard, I would not expect HospiMagi links to change much in price while HI without Fury would adjust downwards slightly giving more breathing room to get the profiles necessary to address list weaknesses and mission requirements.
That's under the current rule set, though, so if N4 alters how CC work or massively changes rangebands or makes Fury a drawback for Fireteams as well, etc, then of course such pricing estimates are off.
And the lack of Tigers and Daofei, inclusion of pseudo HI, and Dashat taking our new exclusive gimmick/toys a couple of months later. The whole fiasco will just keep on rolling as Corvus Belli will never change. At least the tears of unsuspecting players/customers keep them well hydrated.
I never considered HospiMagisters a very good list, what am I missing?