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Yu Jing Fluff - Perception, Reality, Desire

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Devrailis, Mar 28, 2018.

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  1. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    Trying not to mention I'd probably play these lists out of fear of being punched.

    They are good enough to win with. I don't think most would take a CBL to a tournament but thats because people who want to win like to min-max their lists to their liking. But I do think these lists are good enough to win with in one of ITS games with friends.
     
  2. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
    Warcor

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    I agree, but this isn't the thread for THAT conversation.
     
  3. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    Opps, I'll move my posts to the correct forum. Sorry.
     
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  4. Solodice

    Solodice Freshly Squeezed Troll

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    Hmmm, the Yuandun Division is almost the perfect bow to wrap that flanderization box with.

    For me the rebellion doesn't bother me. That shit was on the wall for a while with the overall treatment of Japanese civilians and soldiers. I don't care that the Japanese won either. The small details are where it loses it for me. Small details are the glue and binding of world building. They help to hold up the bigger ideas. When these bonds don't work (opinion of course) the bigger ideas start to break apart.

    ISS getting their Bosnian War on and inviting the CNN to watch the creation of mass graves (oh, I wonder why no one sided with YJ here). It looks like they got caught with their pants down for just being idiots (herp derp... I forgot we live in a mass communication age). O-12 sitting by while PanO starts engaging Yu Jing assets in YJs own territory (oh it's cool... you do whatever you want cause you're the guys in blue). ISS and YJ intelligence missing all the big warning signs. Yeah, they can still lose out on the rebellion but being totally blind to some of the moves the Kuge were doing is hard to believe (ignore the tremors... the volcano is totally not going to erupt).

    Also on the matter of Yu Jing's dark elements always being there. Yeah, the ISS has its reputation for a reason. There's the Kuang Shi (yeah, yeah, we hear it all the time). The Wu Wing (the penal regiment for military criminals... a second chance if you live). Uprising takes this element that in Yu Jing was around, say, a 6/7 and punches it up to 11 (why not just make 10 louder?). It takes the original idea of Yu Jing and replaces it with it's dark element to be what it truly is (read: flanderization).

    To rub salt in the wounds... you'll get IA... some time in the future. Until then... suck it up.

    Maybe other factions will get some bloody noises but YJ just got its face smashed in (maybe they can be the ones to do that to some when else... nah, Yu Jing isn't allowed to do that).
     
    #1324 Solodice, Apr 24, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2018
  5. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    @Dude : Here, let the former military writer take a swing at @Aldo 's notes.

    reads OK for militarese, which is a different language than Civilian. The Imperial Service is like the US Army in this sense. The Yuandun Division is the name of a Special Task Force in the Imperial Service. (The US generally doesn't name Task Forces, as they're not in existence long enough to bother naming). I think part of what CB was trying to get at was Operational Detachment Delta, better known as Delta Force, which is an admitted unit organized under the US Army's Special Operations Command. I'm sure there are other units that don't officially exist.

    Don't need to comment here, but thought people would assume I was skipping it if I didn't say something.

    Better line here would be "No Quarter", old militarese for "take no prisoners."

    But I'm going to note that 'nacht und nebel' was ruled a War Crime in 1947. Yes, the existing laws of war are rather unclear on exactly when you need to start protecting prisoners, but that point is once you get their name, rank, and serial number. They are also very clear that pretending to surrender just so you can get close enough to the enemy to kill them is also a war crime (not that many attempting such would survive, but it allows people to come down on any officers ordering such behavior).

    Then again, these are the same laws that say collective punishment against civilians is a War Crime, so International Law has apparently been thrown right out the airlock still screaming.

    That's actually an ambiguity in most European militarese, especially if the person usually plays pre-WW1 historicals. It's worst in Napoleonic French, where you have at least 2 different meanings of corps and at least 3 different meanings of division, some of which are synonymous! Corps can mean 'body of troops smaller than a peloton/company' (used this way when describing troops in a massed formation), it can mean a formation of multiple divisions, and I think there's an intermediate level in there somewhere (I don't read French, and don't play Napoleonics). Division can mean "a part of a battalion", "a number of battalions", or "a part of any unit under independent command from the rest".

    'Murrican militarese would use 'unit' here. Though "unit" is just as bad in terms of describing a variable number of people, at least it's not used anywhere else!

    Sometimes, unit naming can get ... 'inflated' isn't the right word exactly, but I don't know the word that means 'larger than physical body count would imply due to span of control or weapons used'. For example, there is only ONE Captain onboard a Navy ship. I don't care if the Officer In Charge of the ship is an Ensign straight out of the Academy, his title is still Captain and he is the Boss of the Boat. A Marine Captain (O3) onboard a Naval ship gets called 'Major', and can get thrown out on his ear if that Ensign says so. A Navy Captain (O6) gets referred to as 'Commodore', and can get thrown out on his ear if that Ensign says so (it's less healthy for the Ensign's career to throw his own Commodore off his boat, but it can happen). Anyway, Special Ops units are one of those 'inflated' units. They usually have an officer or a very senior NCO, the types of people usually in charge of 100+ people, in charge of a team of 12.
     
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  6. Leviathan

    Leviathan Hungry Caliban

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    Oh look, a positive quote from a Yu Jing source.

    Oh look, a negative quote from an anti-Yu Jing source.



    I wonder if either of them are actually factual? ( <sarcasm/>...)

    Why are we all just taking this at face value when literally all the rest of the fluff is presented from an in-universe source with its own biases?
     
    #1326 Leviathan, Apr 24, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2018
  7. chromedog

    chromedog Less than significant minion

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    Factual?
    In a game where ALL the fluff written about each "side" is propaganda, and the stuff against everyone else is more egregious propaganda?

    Also, it's a game, where none of the factions are "real", so nothing about them CAN be "factual".
     
  8. Leviathan

    Leviathan Hungry Caliban

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    Bingo.
     
  9. atomicfryingpan

    atomicfryingpan Well-Known Member

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    I do think alot of people have been forgetting that the fluff is pretty much all propaganda. At the end of each section it says who wrote it. If its positive its usually from someone in that faction and if its negative its usually from someone from a rival faction.
     
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  10. Kallas

    Kallas Vincible

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    Cool.

    Maybe some Yu Jing positivity could be written about during the Uprising?

    No?

    ...

    Oh, well I guess I should be happy that we only get a one sided view on a situation that has had only downsides for the faction I play (fluff and crunch), right?

    I mean, how could anyone possibly want to have at least some balancing viewpoints?! It's not like the Uprising involved Yu Jing! Why should they put any effort into detailing things, even a little, from Yu Jing's point of view: they were only the antagonist, nobody plays them!!

    :triumph:
     
  11. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Rules of war get a "bit" goofy.

    It's not legal to use an EM weapon on a person with a Cube, but they're ideal combat engineering tools to toast mines and especially Monowire. And Remotes. Oh, damn, seems that there were some Fusiliers hiding behind that Baggagebot. Sorry about that, we'll pay reparations.

    Flamethrowers aren't supposed to be used on people, but oops, totally didn't see that Ninja/Shasvasti/Ariadnan in the bushes I was burning back.

    And let's not even get into the idea that it is somehow more ethical to wound a person instead of killing them outright and at the same time unethical to wound an animal instead of killing it outright.

    Also, these prohibitions only apply (in the modern day) against the uniformed members of another nation's military. Police and private citizens are free to use expanding ammunition against criminals, and in my state hunters are required by law to use expanding ammunition on game animals.

    I'd assume that these prohibitions don't explicitly apply against non-humans in the Infinity universe.
     
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  12. Eldritch

    Eldritch Well-Known Member

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    I think it's worth pointing out that that the protagonists also were part of Yu Jing and also come off to some extent as hideous war criminals too despite an apparent attempted promotional representation in the main protagonist role with magical protagonist plot power success.

    It's not just (whats left of) Yu Jing that suffers a reduced faction list with genocide smeared all over it. The Japanese models also lost access to the Yu Jing units and also got genocide and war crimes smeared all over them.

    I look at my models that used to be one diverse faction with substantially less nauseating fluff smeared on them and now see two factions worth of not enough variety to select from on my shelf and both of them have genocide and warcrimes pointlessly smeared all over them for no reason.

    I should get some sort of anti-genocide cleaning product, ethnic cleanser? ethnic cleanser... cleaner?
     
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  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Nah, it's cool, it's just the setup for PanO being the good guys to stop all these atrocities!
     
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  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    That's not war crime territory, that's public opinion territory. Weapons which target body functions to cause permanent injury (such as blindness) are war crimes to use, but killing a soldier outright and immediately is as far as war is concerned is preferable.
     
  15. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, permanently blinding laser weapons are against the laws of war. But permanently maiming someone by blowing their arm off is acceptable.

    But it's usually preferable from a tactical scheme to wound people rather than kill them. Killing one man removes one man from the fight, but wounding one man takes 3 out of the fight. (The exception to this is when you have say, qat-chewing Somalis attempting to cut your head off with a machete. You need to kill them to stop them.)
     
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  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Another exception, that the German army found when they started getting backed into a corner shortly after D-Day, is that wounding one soldier and then gaining grounds means you're now responsible for their well-being and recovery as legitimate POWs. (Which is why it got common practice for German officers to order the "we are literally incapable of taking prisoners; kill them" kind of order)
     
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  17. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Sure, and USA went to Irak because of the poor, oppresed citizens there, not because of what could it gain.

    a) being the villain is one thing. Being the pastiche, useless, punching-bag villain who exists only so the "heroes" can do their heroics? Too cliche and infantile. That clashes with "a mature background filled with grays" ;)
    b) Kuangshi are one thing. Promoting war crimes, pogroms, mass graves, and superblack operations overtly? something untenable for any country. That road blows up the whole Infinity's setting.

    Simplify, simplify, simplify. Sun Tze cannot suggest to leave Paradiso, but YJ can just tell O-12 "ok. We have to leave Paradiso because of all the combat casualties suffered during PanO's Steel Wall. Good luck with Paradiso". With some backmaneuvering, they can even sell territory to other factions and get out. Let them bleed against the CA.

    Well, there is the Ghazi Mutta 'wiahs, who also carried suicide vests in previous editions before changing it for the "we oblivion anything, but we no hackers mwahahahahah", and keep being a suicidal troop thanks to the same cost a Kuangshi has.

    Anyway, you can go to PanO, and compare that with Ateks. Kinda like homeless people, but worst since they can't even access public services like road traffic signals without a comlog, something too expensive for them to have.
    So the "nation of righteousness" has a huge population of nth-class citizens they care nothing about, and hope they just stay out of sight.

    Yo umisunderstood something. Current CA troops are but a fast and light exploration force. They are the Enterprise's equivalent of the CA. Now, imagine the Terran Empire (from Star Trek's Mirror Universe) united, without backstabbing, and focused. Coming en masse. And with little qualms when it cames to blow planets, as the Morat know well.

    Clearly, somehow the "its in the future, you can't grasp it" suffices as explanation for some people. For some others, no, specially when ti has already been explained by section9 as "gangs lowering the real state value, then foreign nations corps come and buy it".

    That says less about how "noble" those units are, and more about how dirty is Aleph willing to get her hands. And questions Aleph's involvement during the Uprising, and why are those units in the CBL lists if Aleph did not support YJ...

    Because the choice is to endure loss after loss or let those who are clearly too bored containing the CA to do just that and keep picking fights with YJ?

    And, surprise, that ended with World War 2. directly because of those "war reparations" had strangled Germany's economy, and people would receive their salary weekly (or daily, can't bother to find the data atm) with a wheelbarrow to carry all those bills.

    There is a difference between "I get inspiration from real life" and "I write only a part of the things": a good writer takes into account what leads to a situation, and the consequences of that situation. Handwaving the "leads to" as "Kuge got lucky, YJ got not clue of what was brewing", and the consequences as "not written yet" points worringly to "we didn't think the consequences of this Uprising as we presented it to the players, let's handwave it so NOTHING CHANGES but for JSA being now a NA2 faction instead of YJ vassals".

    Yeah, I am claiming that the setting is as static now as it was before, with that only difference of where JSA is located.

    Difference: the Druze were not thrown to the face of the playerbase.
    Difference: the Druze are "the bad Private Military Contractors", AKA "unscrupulous mercenaries", and were relegated to Qapu Khalqi, or their own sectorial. Even when the were "thrown at our faces" on Outrage, they weren't specially shady nor villainous, just the outclassed antagonists because the protagonists made a successful surprise attack, and they were turning the tables pretty soon.
    Difference: the Druze are a small ethnic group turned mercenaries, while YJ is (supposedly) the 2nd power of the Human Sphere.
    Difference: Tthe Druze commiting "war crimes" was described as... "war crimes". No details given, just a broad description of why they were not good people (add their motto, group characterized with 3-4 lines), people free to fill the gaps if so they desire. Uprising's stuff? Described in detail. And the chronology alone makes me wonder what sane Human Rights defence oversight organization like O-12 would grant those psychopaths their own Nation status, aside from trying to avoid YJ's even bigger excesses.

    Yeah, let's demonize those soldiers who, wounded, grab a primed grenade close to their chest (with more grenades, un-primed, so when that goes off, all do) to let his partners flee while he heroically sacrifices his life to take as many enemies with him as possible.
    Oh, wait. That was a USA trooper against insurgents and crazy fanatics who would torture prisioners to death.
    Or maybe a wounded german trooper during WW2 who never knew of the camps, and was terrified of the russians assaulting their position like locusts, only half of them carrying weapons.

    Wait, weren't we talking about how Infinity was about scales of grey? That means there is no "Good Guys" for the Detect Good spell to ping, dude ;)

    It is, literally: "a task force specialized in hunting Japanese, a task that they conduct with particular joy and efficiency". Not Japanese Soldiers, nor Japanese Insurgents, not even JSA enemies. JAPANESE. As in "ANY HUMAN OF JAPANESE ETHNICITY".

    If you are going to reply "but that doesn't mean they kill all japanese, just the enemy combatants", please explain to me how can there be still any non-brainwashed pro-kuge anti-YJ japanese civilian on kuraimori, or any place in the universe. So yeah, they can be categorized as ethnic cleansing.


    "The YJ forum has a 67 pages thread devoted to Uprising!"
    "Great! Let's give them more of what they like to talk about!"
    "Won't that be a bad idea? Some people are talking about leaving the game"
    "Nah, there is no bad publicity, just publicity. We will cover those getting out who already have bought our models with Grimdork kiddos who like to play bad guys, it was kinda time totake away people from GW. Why did you think we are adopting their strategies?"

    Flash news: GW was abandoning those strategies, as "they do not work".

    The problem is that CB is portraying this as "YJ enjoys it", not as "YJ has been forced to, against its better judgement and desires, to a low point that no amount of philosophy can justify". YJ is portrayed as gleefully evil, not caring about being portrayed as the bad humans, and USELESS about facing the threats.
    So, a barking dog without teeth at all, eating shit and rolling in the mud. Not a very inspiring image to impulse sales, I'd say.

    You forgot to mention that nobody reviewed the document, since it has the old Su-Jian "CA-like" logo...

    ...By the "human rights defense organization" that is O-12, owner of 90% of the regular Circulars, worried about how a Chain Rifle works but willing to look the other side if civilians are used as terrorists...
    But hey! it's Grimdork! Life is cheap now in Infinity, same as in that Empire we all know and think about!

    You forgot to add that little bit of "using anti-material weapons on people is glossed over with the fact that they wear uniforms or are inside military vehicles (both war material, by a definition)"... Yeah, war gear legislation can be so stretched over...

    On the bright side, Infinity has no gas weapons. Yet.
     
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  18. Aldo

    Aldo Trying to detox from being a lorefag

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    I wouldn't call that a positive quote.

    "this entire division is going full rogue cop! Yay!"

    Then the emperor comes in and says "You're a loose canon! You are out of the force! I want your Multi Heavy Machine Gun, your TAG and your badge!"

    And that's where you start a wacky low-budget rogue cop movie.

    Maybe they should make Police Academy: Imperial Service Edition. That would be fun.
     
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  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Tohaa's stuff is awfully close...
     
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  20. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Nah, those are just engineered animals to act as armor, or suicidal meatshields, or "explosive" clouds of hacking.

    I mean, it's not like if we were strapping demo charges to dolphins trained to ram enemy warships... I mean, errrrh...
     
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