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Yu Jing elements and N4.

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Triumph, Oct 14, 2020.

  1. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I want to frame this thread with personally I was pretty positive about White Banner in N3 and was looking forward to them in N4 and felt like they were going to a good place where they could stand apart from vanilla successfully.

    Now we're here I don't think those optimistic thoughts panned out. I'm not satisfied with where White Banner wound up and the problem I think is largely with the Tian Gou which were a lynch pin unit that would make or break fireteams. To discuss that further we need to first consider hacking in N4.

    KHDs in N4 suck at killing stuff, they have no teeth. As the local Nomads player put it to me "we've fucked up and gone back in time to N2 where hackers were king shit with total impunity. They don't have a predator in their ecosystem." He also had some choice things to say about people who didn't understand how to hack in N3 and were garbage players who talked too much on the forums but I'm not gonna go on that tangent.

    The proliferation of firewalls, and the meta shifting towards offensively moving/deploying repeaters to hack through rather than physically moving the hackers to hack targets, combined with KHDs now being very adversely affected by them, makes it very hard for your bog standard KHD like a Ninja, Tian Gou, Kanren or so on and so forth from actually being a lethal threat or any kind of deterrent. This is further compounded by some of the strongest hacker profiles now being able to throw themselves into powerful tinbot links and/or having very high BTS scores and the N4 Trinity just doesn't cut shit in terms of being able to threaten them.

    In terms of counter hacking for Yu Jing I'm actually finding it's less important to invest in the basic bitch KHD profiles. In fact I would go as far as to say don't touch them at all for the most part, it's more important to invest in tech that can safely remove repeaters Linked Grenade launchers, disposable troops to attack ensconced repeaters, etc.

    I would rather have a Ninja who can move into a repeater zone and just beat the shit out of the Moran holding the repeater rather than a Ninja who will more than likely fail to kill the target hacker even if he consistently wins F2F rolls because he's statistically attacking the target with a fucking basic Pistol. It's becoming a shared opinion in my meta that the basic bitch KHD profiles for various armies need to become a greater threat otherwise they're just going to become irrelevant in the hacking sphere of the game.

    That tangent aside, the Jammer profile obviously got a massive indirect nerf for the Tian Gou. These were the two profiles that in N3 were the key to making White Banner fireteams both unpredictable and very dangerous to engage aggressively. The Ye Mao are paying to be a super jump unit in N4 with 4-4 MOV which isn't great, and they can't core and their supportive wildcards are now much weaker and this overall makes them very unattractive, playing smaller fireteams of any sort are much more difficult to make viable with the Tian Gou's current state.

    Want the core with Shang Ji-sus? Well IA has the exact same allotment of Zhanshi (fucking why?), better support wildcards (Haidao, Jeong, Krit, Hulang, Son-Bae, Tai), and had their wildcard maximums removed (unlike White Banner).

    IA's improved fireteams aside I was ok with considering weak fireteams in White Banner in N3 because I was looking at White Banner being very ambushed focused.

    Unfortunately for White Banner, Vanilla has seen some massive improvements in this department.
    • Liu Xing got huge buffs
    • Lu Duan has a very legitimate target to impersonate as the EVO hacker
    • Hac Tao got an NCO profile and got a price drop
    • The Hun Dun is still AVA2 in Vanilla (and honestly going past 2 for either Vanilla or White Banner isn't great)
    • The Kanren got a huge buff at both effectiveness in CC and the ability to reach it with Mad Trap baiting, additionally with Hulangs being stronger they finally have a good target to misdirect with holomask
    • The Ninja got the FO profile I've been bitching about Yu Jing not being given for years

    On that last point do not sleep on that Ninja FO profile, it is legitimately good. I think people are forgetting this fucker has a flash pulse and running much more dangerous Stun ammo now. Actually running AVA2 Ninjas isn't a meme anymore, these units are a legitimate ARO threat and can fuck up a solo Rambo's attack run very easily. An uncontested Flash is likely to hit on a 16 given that the Ninja has such a depth of places and angles it can hide in with Infiltration. A BTS6 TAG fails that save 58% of the time, let alone a lesser armoured target.

    If you layer your hidden AROs correctly, even a fireteam pointman is going to have a difficult time maintaining a combat effective status when he's simultaneously trying to avoid getting his link raped by a Hundun HRL and also not get stunned out of commission by a Ninja.

    As an added bonus to their versatility Ninjas had a decent boost to their CC threat being less crit reliant now with effectively PH14 for damage rolls with that DA CCW thanks to MA3.

    Overall Vanilla really has very strong ambush game. It is legitimately very hard to tell what the fuck is actually in a Vanilla Yu Jing list when they have so many good options to deploy off the table along with some very decent options to obfuscate their support and attack pieces through holomask. It is difficult to even be sure a Liu Xing is being telegraphed by a lone EVO remote when it could just be a Lu Duan faking it.

    Overall, not impressed with the final product of White Banner but I really like where Vanilla is right now.
     
    #1 Triumph, Oct 14, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2020
  2. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    It's as you say, can't outshine vanilla as an ambush faction. It *needs* to leverage fire team options and the fire team options are are absolute dogshit.
     
  3. SpectralOwl

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    A note on KHDs: they're utter crap at killing elite Hackers under Firewall. They're very good at killing them if you can remove the Firewall, with only the Interventor and KoJ being resilient enough to survive more than an Order or two. There's definitely a real active-turn bias to their use as well; you can't count on them to stop anything without numbers in reactive but they'll stomp all over a Danavas or even an Asura in their own turn. If you can find a way to kill their Tinbots and slip a KHD, or even better a DepRep Guilang, into their backline even a Nomad Sectorial player is usually screwed.

    The big benefit for running Sectorial Yu Jing now definitely seems to be the Tinbot sharing; Pitchers will be the bane of any Yu Jing Vanilla force that isn't leaning into ambush tactics while a Zuyong link sticking enemy Hackers with the Internet equivalent of ODD can survive for quite a while with good Resets.

    Good call on that Ninja FO. I rated it highly myself just for its Combi Rifle, but Flash Pulse on 16s is not to be ignored if you can catch the enemy out of position. Even the actual Forward Observer skill can be used in ARO now, letting you set up some nasty Son-Bae opportunities on the enemy's last orders or threaten fat targets like Suppressive Fire TAGs on fairly safe dice. I'm going to have to try them out next time I break out the Yu Jing.
     
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  4. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Gonna third that Ninja FO interest. Definitely got to try that out. ISS will be especially pleased with this development.

    KHD Ninja is dead, long live FO Ninja.
     
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  5. Paegis

    Paegis Vincible Officer

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    Just so I don't have to start a new thread in the Rules forum, does FOing someone cause a FtF if they shoot at you?
     
  6. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    FO Ninja, hunting Nomad hackers
     
  7. SpectralOwl

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    It's a BS Attack, and works exactly like a normal BS Attack. It is Face-to-Face with enemy Dodges, BS Attacks, CC Attacks or Hacking Attacks.
     
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  8. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    With Oblivion and carbonite being what they are at the moment (especially oblivion), standard hackers have better odds at removing an enemy hacker as a threat than the KHD does (unless it's a morat or any other hacker with veteran, then you are just SOL). Which is all kinds of pants on head stupid, if the piece that is the internal counter that is supposed to keep check on these things can't effectively do it's job, then someone somewhere fucked up royal.

    Or at least spent too much time listening to people (incorrectly) complain about how the KHD ruined hacking (it really didn't) and took that to heart.
     
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  9. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    This is a good reminder as I keep gravitating to killer hackers with my n3 mindset. The real big D energy hackers are the ones who get upgrades like +1B or AP
     
  10. Amusedbymuse

    Amusedbymuse Well-Known Member

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    Freaking interventor KHD with his fast panda to engage from 16in with firewall and his upgrade on trinity with -3 for opponent.
     
  11. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
    Moderator

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    I am quite sure the message can be delivered without the use of such language and I would suggest a reconsideration on the use of it.
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    What constantly irks me with White Banner design is that Jing Qo is a dead end; her Fireteams aren't terribly good and she's built to be either a Fireteam player or a skirmisher but doesn't have the Fireteam options of the former nor the Infiltration of the latter. Add to this that Liang Kai, originally a Yu Jing character who outsourced himself has some pretty terrible Fireteam options in what we can only call his "home". In my list design I'm also returning to the issue of the Jujak, though it's less of an issue with Shang-Ji not being terrible - however the Shang-Ji is still kind of tacked-on to this sectorial for little good reason, it seems above all else that they saw a rules design that needed filling with a round unit and decided they didn't want to make this round unit so the smashed the square Shang-Ji into this hole to fill it.

    My bespoke fixes listed;
    • Jing Qo needs either Wildcard or Forward Deployment L2 (I'm personally leaning towards the latter)*
    • Liang Kai needs to count as a Ye Mao for Fireteam purposes
    • Just allow Jujak to form Fireteams of their own volition
    • Allow REMs to join Jujak fireteams.
    • Sectorial and Yu Jing is missing a hacker division more than the other two sectorials. (So does Pan-O, kind of, but that's besides the topic)
    • Are Shang-Ji really necessary? See previous bullet points

    * As a small note, I do think the legend of Jing Qo had the helper being incompetent and nervous, so maybe a Shaolin is a bad fit for this special Fireteam anyway?
     
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  13. Aldo

    Aldo Spare 15

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    Wildcard Jin Qo and Counts as Ye Mao Liang Kai would go a long way towards making something interesting in White Banner.
    More Zanshi AVA and letting Jujaks do more than be Shang Ji filler would help too.
     
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  14. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    What is the legend?
     
  15. Teslarod

    Teslarod The Squeeze has not been Sqouze

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    Hacking is better than in N3, but still by no means game breaking either way, it's neither too strong not to weak. For the most part it finally interacts with the rest of the game, so there's a downside for just ignoring Hacking with Tohaa/Ariadna/Haqq.... or other all unhackable armies.

    Opportunity cost also went down, 5 for a HD, that is basically a 1 point cheaper AHD with *soft-Jammer* like utility against otherwise unhackable troops. I would have played 15 points AHDs in Core Links in N3 everywhere (and did play the only one really available, the Brawler AHD).

    The N3 problem was KHDs invalidating most defenses, especially for HI Hackers. DAM16 Programs, negates Firewall, utter bullshit like Maestro, sucked to be a Hacker in a KHD's world.
    N4 did a good job at toning down KHDs (better at FTF but can actually be opposed by defenses), what people seem to be missing is that KHD's no longer counter all Hackers period. They still shred through BTS0/3 WIP12/13, which includes most LI, MI and Skirmishers as well as unprotected *light* HI Hackers. To take on an KoJ behind a Firewall you better bring a WIP15 HD with its own Firewall and Oblivion or shoot it in the face and that's honestly a good thing.
    Walking a KHD into a Repeater and expecting to take out an opposing Hacker is no longer a thing. You can finally defend yourself by heavily investing in the Hacking game.

    Oblivion/Carbonite are nonlethal, but persist and can be cancelled with and without an Engineer. N3 Carbonite was pretty crappy aside from providing a +3 ARO against KHDs.
    Similar to that Jammers are no longer the entire focus of the trooper carrying them but a still very useful and valueable piece of equipment on top of what the trooper brings. Disposable (2) means your worst case scenario is forcing 2 Resets for a one point piece of equipment, that's still silly effective.

    Really don't get the *KHDs suck*, *Jammers suck* claim here.
    Oh no maximum security against Hacking finally works! That's seems kinda like the point, no?
    The aforementioned cheap Hacker in a Core Link is a standout defensive piece of Sectorials now (and you really need it too). Every time something walks through your Repeater net they risk an ARO thanks to Sixth Sense (and have the choice to eat a normal roll or oppose and disable their Stealth), unlike in N3 the LI Hacker now has a Firewall and a +3 ARO program and isn't just free food for any run of the mill KHD.
    That vastly improved Hacker on top of the core linked ARO is now a major selling point for any Sectorial over vanilla.

    There's still ways around Hacking and I'm dead certain ignoring Hacking altogether and sucking up the possibility of getting Spotlighted remains entirely viable. Walking through Repeaters as a Camo Marker still works same as before works.
    Camo got better across the board, although more expensive in some places. 1W Skirmishers no longer automatically drop to Crits, there's less Orders to Discover with and Coordinated Sniffer into Sensor isn't a thing anymore. To top it off their natural enemy, Warbands to outtrade them, are far less common and Fire ammo has no lasting effect anymore.

    With defenses shifting from expendable bodies towards actually opposing your opponent, hyper lethal CC, E/M and AP everywhere IA lost more than it gained in my book. White Banner is the place with Hidden deployment Hackers and ARO pieces. Marker state PZFs and Templates on top of Jammers to stack on top of the usual Core Link. If I'd want to live through a turn or two that's the YJ Sectorial I'd started looking at first.
     
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  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jing_Ke

    TL DR:
    Jing Ke, an experienced assassin, was hired by someone who willingly committed suicide for Jing to be able to bring his head to Emperor Huang Di (the Yellow Emperor, notoriously paranoid) as a means to get close to said emperor. Complications ensued and Jing was forced to accept a nervous thug as accomplice instead of one of Jing's experienced companions. The accomplice ruined the assassination attempt and Huang Di's physician hurled a medicine bag on Jing which allowed the emperor to gain distance enough to kill Jing Ke.

    Basically, Jing should have Holomask and Tian Gou would make a perfect duo partner for cultural reference reasons with Tao Wu being the missing competent partner. And Vulnerability (Medikit).
     
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  17. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    The issue the basic bitch KHDs are facing is that they're not very useful in the N4 hacking sphere with the way its changing to favour fighting with repeaters and firewalls. By becoming a hacker of any type, you don't just get benefits it's offset because you're adding a vulnerability to the unit at the same time. Specifically you now allow the enemy to attack you with no LOF. This can make operating and doing stuff difficult if you are a weaker hacking force (which for many factions is a reality of intentional design).

    If all you need the KHD Ninja to do is delete one linked Fusi hacker at the back of the table through a repeater, sure, she'll probably manage that no worries.

    But now we've invested into a unit that has an added vulnerability that may come into play and heavily limit your ability to do anything with the model into a different match up. If your next game is into a superior hacking force suddenly the KHD on that Ninja is a liability. Need to get under a Moran or Peacemaker and fight off some Uber linked hackers? You're gonna have a bad time. You can't punch through the repeater because the enemy is too strong, and you can't safely be used to attack the repeater itself either with any great deal of ease.

    At this point in either situation you would've been better served by keeping the Ninja as a non hackable target. If you take the FO profile you can simply beat up the nerd carrying the repeater to allow the rest of your army to do what it needs to do. If the hacker is one of those uber hackers sporting firewalls and other defensive tech in a link and is pushing into the middle of the table to fight without a repeater, well it doesn't really matter if the Ninja had a KHD they'd struggle to put them down anyway so we're better off being unhackable still.

    As @Tourniquet points out if you need to fight a KoJ with a Firewall your best hope of actually putting it out of commission in a hacking fight isn't by bringing a basic KHD with Trinity that's just gonna bounce off the massive BTS, you want to attack it with Oblivion's AP shots. A Ninja running around with a KHD isn't going to really do anything in this scenario to assist a Zencha/Daofei/Hac Tao/Guilang Hacker who would be better off trying to engage with Oblivion than any number of Trinity hits the Ninja is going to bounce off a massive BTS score. If anything the FO Ninja profile FOing the KoJ and raining guided missiles on it would have a far more dangerous effect.

    It's easier to justify lone KHDs if you're a force capable of safely contesting for hacking control in most match ups, but that's just not a reality for Yu Jing so I think we're better off largely ignoring KHDs for engaging enemy hackers and to focus on removing the repeaters or attacking from a more conventional vector.


    To be completely clear I don't think Jammers suck and I think the changes to them overall were good, I think the Tian Gou Jammer profiles suck. They're over bloated and feel like they were designed around the stronger N3 Jammers. Similar story for the KHD profile it feels like it was designed for hyper lethal N3 KHDs, the Tian Gou would be a more realistic threat in N4 with a regular hacking device. Overall paying for weird shit like Grenades on a PH10 profile and relatively costly 360 visors isn't great. They just don't do enough to justify their cost or their spots in the links.

    They also have the unfortunate problem where their movement values screw up their holomasking. Being a 4-4 unit that needs to impersonate 6-2 models is a problem. Similarly not being able to holomask a couple of key profiles (because you can't produce the tinbot tokens, LT2, or TacAw orders) is another mechanical issue that ruins their ability to shell game.
     
    #17 Triumph, Oct 15, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2020
  18. Teslarod

    Teslarod The Squeeze has not been Sqouze

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    Still sounds like complaining Combi Rifles (B3 DAM13) are shit against Jotums in Cover.
    Yes they are, still not a problem.

    KHDs get massive utility with Cybermask (no longer requiring a roll), you get to walk through any Repeater you want with them. They're probably best used through one of your own Repeaters now, gaining free Firewall through it. B3 DAM14 with a +3 MOD is basic shooting 101, Firewalls are equivalent to Cover, even a Tinbot -6 is only Cover + Mimetism.
    At the end of a day KHDs are still cheaper, got better Cybermaks and remain Specialists. A token KHD Skirmisher won't be able to dismantle Hacking defenses easily and that's a good thing if the other guy invested in 3 Hackers and a Repeater net.

    KHDs are a choice rather than a nobrainer now, they do what they do and they aren't hard counters, as I mentioned myself, proprerly protected HDs using Oblivion start having better odds to take out opposing Hacker around BTS6 behind a Tinbot than a KHD.

    Trinity is the Rifle of Hacking and there aren't any Spitfires, HMGs or even Pistols around to compete with.
    HD's still can't kill and you need Oblivion and Carbonite combined to really take something out in your Active Turn (which can still be fixed by an Engineer or lucky Reset for the remainder of the game).
    It's woefully inefficient to try and take out a KOJ HD behind a Firewall with any sort of Hacking, HD or KHD really doesn't matter much. But you have to bring a 46 point Combi Rifle to get the guy and his kit. Which also means not bringing the ML or Spitfire instead, so there's definitely a bit of an opportunity cost. Not to mention the clear weakpoint of getting shot at from beyond 8" or 16".

    A KHD is Hacking's only Order efficient permanent solution with no substitute within Hacking, something that should frankly be obivous to anyone playing N4 games.
    Getting Oblivion and Carbonite to stick and then following up with a lethal option is going to cost you at the very least 3 Orders - if you're lucky, win both Hacking FTF rolls, the other guy fails both BTS rolls and have something in place to follow up immedeatly without moving much.
    Only Oblivion leaves the trooper capable to wield his guns, Smoke, Dodge or CC on ARO in addition to let him attempt free Resets at -9 when you progress.
    Carbonite is a pretty easy Reset on -3 on it's own, wouldn't count on that alone for anything.
    KHDs can expect to kill most things faster than that, with or without Firewalls. Working through a Repeater and with a Helperbot in reach this is as safe as it gets to get rid of a HD. It can be Order intesive, but it can't catastrophically fail with the death of your trooper like most other FTF rolls including lethal dice on your side can.

    Your example about Ninja KHD always had the problem of lacking a decent gun to compensate for mediocre Hacking and the difficulty of getting into CC without one - all while being Hackable, which is anti synergistic with a CC Skirmisher stuck at Pistol/Tac Bow having to get very very close to things, including any Repeater and DTW. Stopped using them halfway thorugh N3 altogether and probably won't touch them in N4 at all.
    The other thing that made KHDs in N3 attractive - the pressure to bring a Hacker to unlock REMs. Poof, gone. Ninja FO all the way.

    KHDs aren't the scissors to HD's paper anymore. HI AHDs are tough nuts to crack. Getting upgraded from WIP rolls to automatic success for Cybermask on a Specialist is massive, can't stress enough how much reliability does for them.
    You can bank on your trooper turning into a Marker with the last Order, you can get your trooper through that Mine without having to gamble if it's gonna be more efficient than attempting a Dodge to conserve Orders. You can get to that Objective and push that button with the last 3 Orders.

    HDs are still vulnerable to KHDs, inflict permanent States but can't kill anything by themselves. Requiring outside or KHD interaction to make sure anything WIP13 or higher can't get back in the game by accident while the match continues around them.

    Ditching Hacking altogether doesn't waste the other guy's investment anymore, you'll be eating free Spotlights.

    Hacking itself is not a hardcounter to anything, it's plain old utility and can be pretty much useless even with targets available.
    As a result we'll just see less KHDs in general and more HDs. Imho the Hacking changes make the game more dynamic and less about kills, kills, kills. With other parts of N4 favoring the in-your-face aspects
    All of that is good compared to N3, not gonna claim it's perfect.


    The notion of a linkable Holo Jammer for 22/23 being bad is... for sure an oppinion. It's a shadow compared to how broken superb it was before and it has that 6-2 Mov issue if you want to Move it in a Link, but it's free to stay outside of the Link while retaining full Jammer effect and remains a Wildcard. How much more freedom do you think it needs for shellgames?
     
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  19. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    Triumph just told you he doesn't like the fact that KHD gives your skirmisher a pretty important vulnerability that willmake his life harder in many situations; you ignored this argument and went about how KHD is basically a Combi Rifle while not addressing his point at all. I suppose written communication can be confusing sometimes.

    Also, the point about the shell games wirh 4-4 MOV is not the fireteams, is the fact that the moment your opponent notices that 6-2 MOV unit is only moving 4" every Order you won't have much of a shell game going
     
  20. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Well it is kind of the problem because when you pick up the KHD you're not just going well shit I can't kill the Jotum, by grabbing the KHD this specific "combi" is making it easier for the Jotum to attack you by removing its need to get LOF on you which makes the other counterplay of "ignore the jotum and attack the rest of the army" harder to achieve.

    You're adding a vulnerability to the unit and making alternative counterplay more difficult to do.

    Specifically? It needs enhanced deployment options if it's trying to be useful without a link it's too hard to make sure it can deploy in a useful spot right now.

    It also needs the ability to disguise itself if its actually going to play any kind of shellgame. Can't really play shellgames if your opponent can constantly figure out where it is and when you're trying to obscure points and they know the expensive HI it's trying to impersonate isn't real. Kind of like the Kanren's shellgames actually became legit now the Hulang is more likely to see the table.

    I haven't really found this to be a problem so far. I've just focused on attacking and removing the repeater presence and it really gets it out of your face as far as AROs go.


    A token KHD couldn't dismantle that hacking network in N3 either. Fighting outnumbered under repeaters like that just got them whacked by force of numbers. You could attempt to forcibly suicide to trade for an important hacker but that's not really the same thing as dismantling the hacking network.

    Basic bitch KHDs are a choice for a faction that has the ability to actually contest for control in cyberwarfare. Yu Jing isn't one of those factions. It's easier for Nomads to consider slotting in some KHD Zeros or something to complement the rest of their list as they are more likely to make sure those Zeros can operate. Trying to slot in a random KHD Ninja or Kanren is a major opportunity cost, particularly for Vanilla which has some extremely competitive profile options and limited AVA for both units. KHDs are of very narrow usefulness with considerable added vulnerabilities that will be largely unsupported.

    If you're playing ISS should you waste your AVA1 Ninja on a KHD to help your Wu Ming punch through a repeater net? Or should you just bring a regular Ninja and a Grenade Launcher to delete repeaters and move on with life? I'd argue the latter is far more reliable and it's probably going to be a repeating trend for Yu Jing as a whole faction.
     
    #20 Triumph, Oct 15, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2020
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