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Yu Jing doesn't allow troops to fight in more than 1 battle?

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Bohrdog, May 20, 2019.

  1. Bohrdog

    Bohrdog Santathematics

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    Why is it that every army even NA2s has Veteran 1 or 2 but YJ has zero, cero, null? I am new to YJ and from everything I read they are these great skilled warriors, how do they have no experience to draw on?
     
  2. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Not just in skill. Until recently they only had 2 that were Veteran classification!
     
  3. Shiwen

    Shiwen Commissar, Yu Jing General Political Department

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    While there is certain to be playtesting and points-cost-calculation by CB that makes them think the Veteran skill isn't needed/worthwhile in Yu Jing, I've always wondered if this wasn't because of certain tropes around 'Asian' soldiers which CB is buying into... the idea those militaries are 1) more dependent on orders coming down the chain of command, unable to adapt when that chain breaks; 2) more willing to throw soldiers into the meat grinder/take casualties. I don't feel those tropes are accurate, if you examine the histories and organizational realities, but they do tend to be how things are portrayed in 'pop culture' narratives.

    Obviously, if they apply the second to YJ, troops fight and die too fast to become proper veterans because keeping soldiers alive isn't a factor in StateEmpire tactics or strategy. That is a very inept way to run a military, so hopefully not, but it could be the rationale.

    As for the first, the Veteran skill represents a bit more than just having fought in several battles, it covers a soldier who has done so and developed enough individual initiative that she isnt phased when the officer in charge takes a headshot and stops giving out orders. CB may hold that the StateEmpire military is organized in a much stiffer hierarchy that doesn't allow for that sort of individual initiative to develop, so even Yu Jing's veteran soldiers aren't Veteran soldiers. I think this would also be unfortunate for papering over the many stories of individual initiative and improvisation seen in armies such as the PLA, but it'd be a little easier to stomach... different military structures DO vary in how much they allow for individual action vs strict adherence to orders from above, and both approaches have advantages and disadvantages.
     
  4. McNamara

    McNamara Merc Rep

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    The Druze in Outrage aren't really portrait as veterans and tactical geniuses, so I wouldn't read to much into it.
     
  5. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Veteran isn't a very common skill and many factions get only one troop with it. I totally rate Veteran as Immunity: E/M and Jammers but YMMV.
     
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  6. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    The veteran skills is more likely to go to units that have seen tons of combat even compared to normal soldiers.

    NA2 armies are *constantly* deployed to battle -- they're mercenaries. A Banner Army soldier might be fresh out of boot camp, so he's not a veteran. Zuyong are just Zhanshi in powered armor, iirc. For armies like Morats, the entire culture is kind of a caricature based on war / loosely inspired by Klingons, but it seems their entire history with the EI has been conquering, so the average Morat soldier has seen tons more combat than a non-Morat.

    YJ currently is a secret police sectorial, so not veteran, and a shiny army whose power is mostly as a symbol of the empire, rather than actually being powerful in combat, so not veteran.

    Alternative answer: Veteran really rarely matches between fluff and gameplay.
     
  7. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Umm, Yu Jing has 4 Veteran classification troopers.

    No Veteran skill, but that's just a name for a game effect, like how FRRM doesn't have anyone with NCO, but still has non commissioned officers in the background.
     
  8. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Veteran skill and veteran troop classification is not the same thing, veteran skill implies a soldier who is so well attuned in combat that can operate in a coordinated fashion even if they are completely cut out from command and the battle net.

    Veteran troop classification dictates to what you want, Yu Jing have 4 of these units but their small quantity of veteran classifications troops in comparison to others has more to do with their massive HI equipped armies than how many campaigns the troops survive, essentially all other factions give only enlist Veteran troops and higher for HI troops while Yu Jing have line infantry for their HI.
     
  9. Agorapocalypse

    Agorapocalypse Namurr and Nahab are girlfriends

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    The way i see it, veteran troops are likely veteran soldiers, but the veteran skill means not just seeing many conflicts but seeing many where shit goes sideways and you have to fend for yourself. Veteran grants courage, which many troops already have, and it means the trooper is not just able to take care of themselves (everyone gets at least irregular order) during a break in command, but is able to offer their skill and direction to the rest of the army if even just in a small way, whereas everyone else is just fending for themselves.
     
  10. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to agree that CB is most likely going with the very hierarchical society and military for both YJ and JSA.

    Even today, there is an immense amount of 'obey your superiors' in the various Asian cultures (I'm going to pick on Chinese, Japanese and Koreans for this, but I'm willing to bet that it also applies to Mongolians, Thai, Vietnamese, and any other members of YJ that I'm forgetting). It's hard for me as an American to wrap my head around, even moreso a submarine-trained Sailor.

    Everyone remember that terrible 3-11-2011 Earthquake, Tsunami, and nuclear disaster? The Fukushima nuclear disaster was actively made worse by TEPCO executives and Government officials giving orders for the operation of powerplant systems. Systems they had zero knowledge about! It's culturally unthinkable for almost all Japanese to ignore an order given by a superior. It can be done, but it's usually done at the expense of someone's career. "The nail that sticks out gets hammered down."

    In the US, the nuclear plant operators would literally tell a company exec or politician to Shut the Fuck Up and Sit the Fuck Down while the adults are dealing with the problem (especially if one of them was a Sailor, US nuclear plants love hiring USNavy nukes to run the plant, Sailors know all the emergency actions inside and out).

    To give you an idea of how OCD the Navy in particular is about this: I was unable to even request permission to operate a valve while under direct instruction, with the guy who knows what to do standing right next to me to throw me out of the way in case of trouble. In order to operate ANY part of a USNavy nuclear plant, you have to survive two years of one of the most intense schools in the entire military. There are more people washed out of Nuke School every class than there are washed out of SEAL school every year!

    How insane is the USN's Nuke program? Well, while I was at Squadron, before I got out of the Navy, one of the ships got their Nuke program audited by the Squadron staff. I was typing up their report for Official Navy Formatting, and came across a line that I got explicit permission to share with my Dad, who was a college Mathematics professor. The line? "The testing program was not rigorous enough, in that there were no overall examination failures, and no individual question failures." That's right, tests are supposed to be graded so hard that at least one person fails each test, and at least one question per test is supposed to be so hard that NO-ONE can get it correct. That's on top of questions where there isn't actually enough information given in the question to answer the question, you have to start out by stating your starting assumptions (which are graded).

    Navy Nukes eat their own young!
     
  11. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    I mean when you are operating what I can only assume to be nuclear power plants in aircraft carriers ( Those use those to an extent, right? )... yeah, not doing so might bring a minor teency weency itsy bitsy risk of having a Chernobyl 2.0 in the middle of the ocean...

    So yeah, better they keep eating their young.
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    It's kind of funny that you put this into the perspective of an American soldier, because around here American soldiers are known to be kind of flat-footed without an officer around to give permission (and American officers are known to be bad at sharing the burden of soldiering). I'm very certain that a direct engagement or deployment in difficult circumstances changes things for all involved, but a culture of obeying their superiors (family-state-honour I think the order goes, with complicated informal rules regarding what is considered family) would also be more conducive to officers with Inspiring Leadership or similar skills in terms of Infinity, wouldn't you say?

    (Just a general reminder, Inspiring Leadership doesn't only convert irregular to regular)
     
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  13. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    I guess that skill is more about people what know what to do to act in coherence with the other without the need to comunicate rather than being a seasonned soldier.

    You may be a seasoned soldier, used to be told what to do, where to go and with a lot of tactical support.
    Or a rookie, but you know the plan, and you are trusted by your hierarchy and confident enough to apply it even without directions.
     
  14. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Veteran skill conveys a soldier who knows what must be done, can be done, needs to be done, without the need to be ordered and managed, even to the extend of taking over local command in the case of a complete breakdown.

    Veteran troop classification are troops that survived many engagements and are of an elite status, that does not necessarily means they have the operational qualities of the skill veteran.
     
    #14 psychoticstorm, May 21, 2019
    Last edited: May 21, 2019
  15. McNamara

    McNamara Merc Rep

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    For what it's worth in my opinion all Corregidor soldier should have the veteran rule, but as it stands it's Nomads were the faction which are mostly effected by LoL and have no rules to cover it, before Securitate got the skill.
     
  16. IAGO242

    IAGO242 Executive Officer

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    Not sure if nomads need more buffing. They have more than enough tools and better HI than YJ even.
     
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  17. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    That can be put to an argument, honestly.

    Although the HI Nomads have as is is pretty damn solid.
     
  18. IAGO242

    IAGO242 Executive Officer

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    Riot Grrls are fucking amazing. Way better than Zuyong links. And hollowmen are so resilient. But yeah, our elite HI is of course better, but not linkable.
     
  19. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Well.. They certainly are a clear example of why Fury with practically no downsides, is a very detrimental game design.
     
  20. McNamara

    McNamara Merc Rep

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    Didn't mean it as a buff, just that CJC should be about no hierarchical organisation. That's all.
    We discussed this a lot on the Nomads forum already and I made my peace with it now.
     
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