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Yu Jing Close Combat

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Space Ranger, Feb 3, 2021.

  1. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Under the current rules anything carrying a Shang Ji style CC profile isn't going to get any mileage out of it beyond mildly bumping their chance against a real CC specialist. The only way you could make it useful without entirely overhauling CC plus every dedicated CC unit in the game would be to give things carrying a profile like the Shang Ji a special skill to both shoot and CC in the same order, thereby allowing them to leverage their midrange abilities in both CC and Shooting departments, but that's never going to happen.
     
  2. YueFei23

    YueFei23 Durian Inspector

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    I think if you had a Shang Ji in a defensive link with zhanshi, they could give him a pretty good gang up bonus and have him smack something down very effectively. PH 14 makes for very solid damage at least. In a lot of other links he'll be playing second fiddle to Zuyong breaker pistols with their +1 burst, so even if you get his link into the teeth of the enemy he won't be the best choice to attack with.

    I've had Wu Ming get into combat before though, if you play an HI link aggressively sometimes enemy units will decide being in cc with someone is safer than standing in the open and getting shot. Moving a couple of HI into base contact and giving a smack down with an assist is a great way to finish that trick fast.
     
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  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    It is very difficult to use Fireteams to get a gang-up bonus, particularly when depending on squishy units like Zhanshi that are slower than the intended main hitter. The Fireteam will declare the same skills as the leader and if the leader is Engaged the leader may not declare movement short skills.
     
  4. jamesy52

    jamesy52 Active Member

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    I punched Uxia McNeill's face in with a Celestial Guard, after Uxia killed my ninja. Granted that was largely luck, but in a game where CC isn't as common as in other systems, I've always thought the high CC score in Yu Jing meant they could handle most things toe-to-toe.

    I'm now intrigued to see if I can make a CC army and compare it to other factions.
     
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Melee in Infinity is currently a bit like blood types.
    A: "I have Natural Born Warrior or an equivalent MOD to opponent's CC attack"
    B: "I have Martial Arts"
    O: "I'm a universal donor, please take my life blood"

    Then you have the Rh factor (CC factor) in each group to determine the top dog.

    Attacking a unit in its own CC group is a bit of a waste of time (unlike with blood donations) as is attacking A vs B. CC factor is used mainly to determine who is better within an opposite matchup or a mirror match up, but it is almost never potent enough to change it wrong being a bit of a crap shot and waste of orders.

    As is, we no longer have JSA at the top, IMO, and it's less of a faction identifying perk if you have good melee or not. Most factions have AB troops (e.g. Adil MI-muht or Nourkias) while JSA have a mostly lot of B+ troops who typically find themselves poorly matched against units that remove their MA.

    What I'm getting at is that most troops are universal donors. Food. Shang-ji are certainly among them. Being O+ doesn't really matter all that much and it's mostly when you move between A-B- categories that it's worth noting.
    There's so many A or B or AB troops like the Nahab just waiting to casually stroll in from a table edge to eat their life blood that you can't really predict it or make effective use of the CC value that us somehow increasing your unit's cost.
    Sometimes they literally eat you. Nourkias.

    P.s. what do I want to say with this? Not much. Funny reflection is all.
     
    #45 Mahtamori, Apr 29, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2021
  6. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    We should make a thread to record and honour times where CC 15-19 with no martial arts has paid off. Killing a suppressing fusilier LT in CC with the Hac Tao hacker carrying his sword is a fond memory for me. it was my last order for the turn and if I had just shot at him I might have been critted.
     
  7. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    First time I ran Kitsune she died in CC to a Kriza.
     
  8. YueFei23

    YueFei23 Durian Inspector

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    Yeah, you’re not wrong. It’s an odd hierarchy, but there are also plenty of situations where all models within an area of the table are in group O. In the active turn you also get the initiative in choosing your battles. As the saying goes: “In the kingdom of the blind, the one eyed man is king.”

    That also literally happens, with smoke or eclipse smoke blocking all nearby shooting. Having your blood groups in mind makes for a good talk about who is best, but it shouldn’t blind you to the tactical opportunity of having your Shang Ji step into a smoke cloud and punch some line troop’s lungs out with an assist if that is, bizarrely, the right thing to do and gets you moving on the way to spending your next order where you want to go.
     
  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, Shang-Ji are O+, so punching something O- like a Line Kazak in smoke can be tactically sound if you end up in such a situation, but you don't want to be in a situation like that and it's worth spending a small amount of orders to try to avoid it.
    Basically, if I had a small point with my blood type post it is that you don't want to be in a situation where you're using an O+ to hit an O-, and since you're paying resources for an advantage you actively don't want to use it is in effect not an advantage, but a penalty to have it. Less so with B- or A- units since they still trump all of O reasonably reliably, but you still have to think a bit extra here "do I really want to get Armand into melee or am I don't it only for shits and giggles?"

    One small issue is that "with assistance" can be quite difficult to arrange for Fireteam units because of how order declaration works for Fireteams specifically.

    P.s. I actually had a small reflection on the blood post beyond this; given how rare having something other than O grade units on the board is and how difficult and seldom these get into melee, particularly how you will try to avoid using melee against something in your own "grade", maybe the granularity by which the game treats melee is far too great? That one single point of CC difference between a Guijia and McMurrough isn't interesting bookkeeping and add very little to the game, IMO.
     
    #49 Mahtamori, May 4, 2021
    Last edited: May 4, 2021
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  10. YueFei23

    YueFei23 Durian Inspector

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    Yep, one point of cc stat doesn't do much in that comparison, but cc 19 vs cc 11 or 12 is much more significant, and if you can get burst 2 through a gang up bonus a Shang Ji would be very efficient in cc. A humble Zuyong's +1 B on his breaker pistols is also enough of a buff to make cc worth considering against an O- on your scale. It's times like this I want the N4 dice calculator to be finished...

    Another secret cc star I've always kept in mind is the Hsien. I wouldn't generally risk a powerful gunfighter like that, but anti-tag solutions are so patchy in ISS that I've always made note of the Hsien's ability to kick dents into something like a Jotum that are really hard to scratch with normal ammo. MA-1, AP CCW and PH 14 would do the trick surprisingly well, especially if you could drop some smoke onto the TAG somehow. Again, it's rare that this would be the *best* plan, but it would be extremely stylish to pull off.
     
  11. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    You're wrong on that, the odds are pretty crap for the amount of effort involved at 39% to 19%.

    For comparison Hsien Haris with a MMR at 8-16" is 42% to 7%, and that includes cover for the Jotum. If you shoot through smoke at it the odds are 51% to 4%.
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I'm getting 42% vs 7% when the Jotum is shooting DAM 12 EXP rounds and vs 10% when shooting DAM 16 EXP. That is pretty much ideal situation for shooting and you're still looking at roughly speaking 3 orders per STR to get it down reliably which in itself carries a significant risk. If you misjudged distance you'll be forced to either dodge the flamer or face 55% risk of taking a wound. Several circumstances would allow the Jotums to dig deeper into cover through failing guts or it could attempt to waste orders by dodging which is only marginally less likely to work than putting ventilation holes into the Hsien.

    End of the day, going into melee isn't a universal strat but sufficiently good that you need to consider the circumstances. Particularly if there is some way to get a Zhanying into melee with the thing, who, if the Hsien has already managed to make it into CC, has over 50% chance of bricking the Jotums (good luck dodging out of IMM-A at effective PH 2 vs B2 CC 21)

    Just to underline; this is not a universal strat, it's about optimising success chance as the underdog. (If you're in a situation where you've managed to outplay your opponent's Jotum enough to use optimal strats you won't be attacking with Hsien at all, you'll use a Deva Hacker or Adil or a Su-Jian running circles around it or a Ninja/ABH/CSU that's just tying it up)
     
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  13. YueFei23

    YueFei23 Durian Inspector

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    Hey, some quick dice calc here: tinyurl.com/27pjuky4

    With one gang up assist, the Hsien has a 60% chance of doing 1 STR on a Jotum, and 20% chance of 2. Granted there are plenty of Yu Jing units that will do a better job... but I guess I'm more likely to have a Hsien in my list than Taowu. The Zhanying could also paralyze the tag, and *then* then Hsien has the option of tearing it apart with an assist in a couple of orders. The benefit of doing this cc attack over shooting vs exp rounds is that an EXP hit or crit on your Hsien is catastrophic and fails hard. If you did manage to get a zhanying and hsien into base with the Jotum, just tying up the Jotum without spending orders is also pretty good even if your attacks whiff.

    This is all theory hammer though and getting close enough to the Jotum is always going to be the problem. In a perfect world, you would see a good smoke grenade launcher spot that puts nobody in harm's way and you would be able to make this happen.

    If I had to make a point out of this rambling mess, it's that staying aware of the cc opportunities and what units your models can hurt is always worth it. As Yu Jing we always have some cc utility baked into our units and using it *at the right moment* against the right targets can win games. If you stay ready to throw a smoke grenade onto a Sogarat and beat it to death with a Shaolin it could happen for you too ;)
     
  14. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    You have an MSV guy with an AP gun. Assuming you do this in the 8" rangeband of an MMR you've both caught the Jotum out of cover, and the only response the Jotum has is dodge on an 8 as an ARO. That's 56% vs 9% dodge to put a wound on it.

    In the time it would take you to maneuver two guys into B2B contact you could have multiple shots at the Jotum which is utterly unable to threaten any damage back, if you move two guys into B2B the Jotum can elect to ARO clobber the one who's not the link lead.

    This is also ignoring the fact that neither the Hsien or the Zhanying have stealth. Every order you make within 8" has a 40% chance the Jotum just fucks off out of range of the CC enabling smoke with an uncontested Dodge.

    TLDR: Fucking about with this CC plan is an unreliable risky waste of time that doesn't yield a better result than just shooting the target.
     
    #54 Triumph, May 5, 2021
    Last edited: May 5, 2021
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  15. YueFei23

    YueFei23 Durian Inspector

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    I'm pointing out that situationally, it could be a viable option and could work well. Of course, if you insist on stacking the situation against the Hsien cc is a stupid plan.

    You're assuming that the Hsien has a multi-weapon instead of an hmg, which isn't always the case. And of course, you're assuming the Jotum doesn't have cover, in the edition where everyone is whining that a Tag gets cover from a lamp post. With AP ammo and in cover, the Jotum will have effective ARM 7 vs multi ammo (30% chance of a wound per hit) and ARM 13 vs the hmg (10% chance). You could plink away for a while versus dodges without killing it.

    As the situation develops, you have options to ARO force shoot into the tag while you're advancing inside 8". It doesn't matter if you don't have stealth if you pin it in place with shooting, even if you can't hurt it. It may fail guts and move, but that may force it away from cover if it wants to get out of smoke. I'm not even saying you have to charge across the table intent on getting into cc with the Jotum, I'm advocating that you retain it as a tactical option in close knowing that a Hsien is more than capable of taking it apart. If you've spent most of your orders shooting the Jotum in close without killing it, it may well be smarter to leave your Hsien engaged with the Jotum than leave it strolling around the table in your turn free to manoeuvre and shoot the hsien.

    All of this is in flux around the mission objectives too. Would killing the Jotum or locking it up win the game? Do you need to get a certain number of points somewhere on the table? Is Predator your classified? What other units are in play? Would you really not sacrifice a zhanying (or two) to kill a Jotum?
     
    #55 YueFei23, May 5, 2021
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
  16. YueFei23

    YueFei23 Durian Inspector

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    Most importantly, beating a Jotum to death with your Hsien would be really cool.
     
  17. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I don't rate the HMG Hsien much anymore for ISS.

    1. It's one of the few sources to get an AP weapon in ISS now
    2. Tinbots are extremely important now, the HMG is the only profile that can't get a tinbot and the Hsien doesn't have the luxury of other link members being able to carry a tinbot for him
    3. If you want a Haris HMG the Dakini/Deva Haris provides the same or better odds against many targets at a fraction of the cost when factoring in Marksmanship.
    4. The Hsien/Zhanying link's role of being a defensive link buster was stripped in N4 when CB deleted their nimbus grenades. Using them to hang back and crack open a defensive link with the HMG Hsien isn't really something they particularly excel at anymore. Sending the Hsien into closer rangebands in a Haris to hunt and eliminate mimetic midfielders is something they're ok at, packing both the visor and sensor for it plus a tinbot which makes them less vulnerable than a Crane to getting hacked while they're in the midfield.
    If you are pushing your unit up to the position where it can CC something with the benefit of smoke, it's not going to have cover.

    Correct, but not really relevant to the discussion.
     
    #57 Triumph, May 6, 2021
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
  18. YueFei23

    YueFei23 Durian Inspector

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    1. Your opinions about whether the HMG Hsien is viable or not don't necessarily stop someone else working one into a list. Maybe they know it's right for their match up and mission. Maybe they don't want to take a deva haris today.
    2. Cover is granted by touching anything in front of you, between you and the shooter. A tag could just be touching a flower pot in front of it, and unless you could flank it you wouldn't be able to get it out of cover.
     
  19. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Sometimes people want to take non optimal stuff, sure. I don't really factor that into discussions though. If people want to take dumb shit like Sun Tze then by all means, but I assume they generally know the general cons to it and it's not necessary to bring it up when we're talking about playing and building optimised lists.

    Which if you're walking close enough to stab someone with the aid of smoke, as you are suggesting, is exactly what would happen. Just because you get close to the target doesn't mean you actually need to touch it, the Hsien can just stand out of CC and keep shooting which removes the need to push multiple link members into CC and give the target uncontested CC attacks on link members.
     
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  20. YueFei23

    YueFei23 Durian Inspector

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    It's perfectly possible something can be in cover right in front of you and there's nowhere to go to shoot without giving it cover. I shouldn't need to draw a diagram.

    Also, you're not conceding that there are some times where going the cc route is actually better. Scoring predator is obviously one of those.

    You've put yourself in a silly place here. You seem to want to prove that ccing a Jotum with a Hsien is dumb in all scenarios. All I have to provide is one example why, in the right situation, it's a smart, fun thing to do that actually can be done. I've done that multiple times... so let's not start repeating ourselves.
     
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