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Xenotech + Smoke + MSV2 problem

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Teslarod, Sep 6, 2018.

  1. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    For what it's worth, it's a lot easier to go for your own HVT. ;-)
     
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  2. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    True, but again thats at least 1-2 more orders to get out of your DZ and actually pas WIP ;)
     
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  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Depends on how it's counter-deployed against, right. If you succeed the first check (btw does your own HVT count as friendly if the enemy's count as hostile?) you might not have lost any orders doing it at all since you might want to be a bit cautious and keep partial cover.
     
  4. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    IMHO, one way to solve this would be to say that Civilian, even in CivEvac state, do not trigger any kind of ARO.

    Or more controversial, you could make a more genral rule saying that "if new ARO (or new ARO options) are generated after the second skill declaration", you may change your first ARO to pick one of the new possibility.

    That would stop a lot of weird trick things like, walk to a corner to generate ZoC ARO, and then move in base contact without being shot at ... or the unidron and umbra hacker trick. That would also change the way camo work but that would not be a bad thing since it makes the game more simple and easier to grasp.

    It's always kind of hard to explain to a new player that if he tries to discover in ARO, he can not shoot back if the camo reveal to shoot at him.
     
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  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Camo-style delay on Synched Civilians is probably easiest and most consistent way of preventing this.
    Or simply make ARO generation from Civilians voluntary instead of mandatory. "I choose not to gain an ARO from that HVT's movement"

    If you start messing with generalized ARO re-targeting you start messing with the balance of fireteams, coordinated orders, perimeter weapons, and holoechos. I.e. game balance shifts massively on a Testing As If New Edition Needed scale.
     
  6. Daek13

    Daek13 Active Member

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    This is what some friends and I have decided to do by now.
     
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  7. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    I would simply make it so no ARO is generated by the Civilian. Being able to decide ARO on 2nd short skill due to delay is an extremely strong ability to possess, which is exactly the reason why Sixth Sense is such an expensive skill. This is also the reason why I care much more about losing the 4th man link bonus than I do with the 5th member, as SS:L2 has proven to me to be a much, much stronger force multipler / utility for your link than almost anything else.
     
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  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, but if they use camo-style delay it would mean the ARO is lost if the synch-controller doesn't reveal or shoots a different target.

    It's not as strong as SSL1 delay
     
  9. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Hellois comment for this issue? Neat.

    Glad CB recognizes this is an unintentional side effect of Xenotechs.
    I'm writing Lists for a SOF tournament right now and tried building one around that exact mechanic.
    Was the most broken thing I've ever seen so far.
     
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  10. YueFei23

    YueFei23 Durian Inspector

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    Yeah, a fix should also be considered for:
    • Syncing an HVT or other civvie. (Agema or Gao Rael have MSV2 and can start next to an HVT at 16", so can start this shenanigans with CivEvac and smoke then start deleting enemy units)
    • Synced perimeter weapons or equipment. Hsien and Zhanying.
    • MSV2 in mixed links, like kempeitai and keisotsu.
    • MSV2 and ZoC ARO forcing.
    I think the cleanest fix would be to enable declaration of a delay ARO against a model in a smoke cloud, similar to a Camo token that has not yet revealed.

    Fun interactions and faking out potential are still retained with delay and an MSV2 model threat could be used to allow a synchronized model to pass a gap. This removes all the really mean ways to ARO force and gives a choice back to the reactive player.

    Keeping an eye on a smoke cloud for incoming fire should be possible - nobody blows smoke around a battlefield because they're having a camp fire cook-out. It's an obvious sign of enemy troop movement or possible incoming fire.
     
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  11. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Meh, sounds like hyperbolic hysteria at best. Yes this is bad mechanic but considering how it’s still easy to pull off with mad traps, hardly more game breaking than most Ghazi or Tarik with FAT2. The requirements for placing smoke actually limits this abuse a lot due to the order intensity. The fact that you need to use mercs to break it isn’t really a good argument, you can break many factions with uncontrolled use of SOF.
     
  12. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Which MSV2 HMG has Madtraps?

    You can also still shoot the Madtraps on ARO to make it stop. The Xenotech lets you repeat the trick over and over with no downside.
    The Merc thing is only relevant for PanO who have very strong MSV2/3 without Smoke. A Hsien, Charontid or Asuara can pull the same thing off in every game with Xenotechs.
     
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  13. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Hsien with Zhanying MadTraps Haris.

    And shooting the MadTraps is going to get you shot with unopposed HMG rolls.
     
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  14. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Hsien Haris.
    Also this is what I mean with internet hyperbolic nonsense. Yes, you CAN shoot the Mad Trap but you most likely won’t do that in practice because you’d rather dodge and get an actual FTF instead of standing to lose your important and expensive piece. Again, I don’t like this mechanic but don’t blow this out of proportions, there are far more toxic things in this game than this.
     
  15. Bohrdog

    Bohrdog Santathematics

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    Civilians are neutral to everyone, just say they don't generate an ARO. Problem solved and doesn't effect any other part of the game.
     
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  16. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    How many people you know actually run that Haris? It's a massive tax to pay for that trick, not no mention the 5 model footprint of that Haris which makes it harder to execute. It is the same core mechanic though.
    If you're a Fusilier ML rolling for a Dodge on 10 vs a BS14 B5 HMG you might as well accept your fate and shoot that Madtrap. It sucks, but honestly it's the much better choice,
    Although I can see a Magister opting for the Dodge there.

    You don't get to pick the first line of defense so that makes executing the trick a bit harder.
    Not sure what you would think is more broken than forcing non threatening AROs your HMG will easily beat but okay. The ability to completely negate all defensive benefits for Links, TR Bots and other dedicated ARO pieces like Sin Eaters doesn't seem like an intentional balance change for Xenotech missions to me.
    Since when is pointing out unintentional consequences for flaws in gamemechanics hyperbolic?
    Fell out of bed with and stubbed your toe or why so hostile mate? This ain't reddit, no sense in grabbing the torches and pitchforks at the drop of a hat. Take a deep breath and chill for a second.

    Funny you say that, 2 hours after mentioning how the Xenotech is abusable the TO came up with exactly the same house rule you suggested. But I'd much rather play by the rules, so something official is simply preferable.
    Imho houserules are generally a bad idea for tournaments.
     
  17. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    It's a pretty standard Haris that people seem to like anyway.
     
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  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I like that fireteam quite a bit, however, as you note the footprint is huge and the nature of how Perimeter works (you naturally want them spread out) means that actually using the MadTraps in that way can be quite tricky.
     
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  19. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    That's a nice Dodge but not an answer. :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

    Thank you. You're the first person I've ever met who actually put that thing on the table.

    So what's the general consensus here? Is the ZOC+MSV2 version and the Hsien Haris + Madtrap version fine?
    Just change how Civillians trigger AROs?
    Fix the whole interaction for all scenarios?
    Touch nothing, get an official ruling this is intended and let me have my fun the one time I get to play an Aquila with Smoke?

    Don't mind either way.
     
  20. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    What dodge? It's a relatively common Haris option, even if you don't happen to come across it.
     
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