1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Would you use Fireteams if they had no bonuses?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by toadchild, Oct 1, 2020.

  1. WiseKensai

    WiseKensai Rogue Interventor
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    356
    Likes Received:
    584
    I use duos reasonably frequently to get the specialist/toolbox + gun "voltron" unit blob shoved upfield.

    If 3-model links lost +1 burst, I probably would've kept using them in N3, but probably not in N4. There seems to be more of a focus on jack-of-all-trade profiles in N4 like the Kosmosoldat SO, Evader AP Spitfire, whatever that PanO HRL + FO thing is called, etc, so there isn't much of a need to "voltron" more capabilities into a blob that moves up the field.

    I'd still use a duo though, mostly to drag an expendable bodyguard sort of profile around to have some ablative wounds for something like the Evader.

    4- and 5-model links are just like playing the game with oven mitts. It feels clumsy, unfocused, and a bit of a hot mess. I didn't like them in N3, and I still don't like them in N4. I'll use 'em if I have to though... sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.
     
    DamnDaemon and Tourniquet like this.
  2. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2018
    Messages:
    3,480
    Likes Received:
    2,678
    I have never really liked Fireteams and thought they were too powerful from the beginning. I still can't seem to do anything against them with vanilla.

    I'd like to see them get nothing more than the movement bonuses. That to me is already something over vanilla.

    It used to be that Vanilla had the better choices of troops. That is not so much the case anymore. Some armies are still fine like Nomads, Haqq, and Combined, but many sectorals now have more than enough troops to do what they need to do and more.

    I also think it's vastly unfair for troops that have Frenzy to have the rule ignored when in a fireteam. Who actually takes Frenzy troops and Not put it in a Fireteam if they can? And by the time they actually do Frenzy, they've probably killed most of your force.
     
  3. ambisinister

    ambisinister Broken Zoetrope

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2018
    Messages:
    547
    Likes Received:
    455
    I could get behind something like this. Fluff wise the idea that only non elite troops can be trained to work together and multiply each other’s effectiveness doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, but balance wise I like it. 5 man core is a way to make line infantry cheerleaders relevant enough to risk using instead of just hiding them in total cover to protect the order pool. I mean , really, that’s what core links primarily were in N2.
     
  4. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2017
    Messages:
    655
    Likes Received:
    1,059
    Not entirely to do with bonuses but what I think would be interesting would be if fireteams worked as coordinated orders*. The limitations of coherency and composition would offset the reduced expenditure of command tokens. Obviously this concept would require some iteration to refine the balance; it might require some changes to coord orders too.

    *edit for clarity - permanent coordinated orders with the fireteam leader being the spearhead, B calculated according to the number of members, etc.
     
    #24 Dragonstriker, Oct 4, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2020
  5. Shrooms

    Shrooms Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    45
    nvm
     
    #25 Shrooms, Oct 4, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2020
  6. miguelbarbo84

    miguelbarbo84 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2018
    Messages:
    143
    Likes Received:
    152
    I suggested this as well some time ago, and would support a change in this direction.

    Also, I'd like to test what would happen if only the base unit received the bonuses, while wildcards, etc. get nothing special.
     
    RolandTHTG and Dragonstriker like this.
  7. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2018
    Messages:
    3,480
    Likes Received:
    2,678
    I'd like to see, in order to keep up with sectorals, is Vanilla armies get free Duo and Haris. No wildcards or mixed troops. I think it's possible now.
     
    Mahtamori likes this.
  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    10,194
    Likes Received:
    12,746
    Hmm. Combined have no AVA 3 Haris units, Haqq have plenty. Would need an overhaul of AVA in vanilla for Haris and I'm not sure I like where that'd take the game. Vanilla isn't far behind at all in power curve.

    I do think Duo should be allowed, though this, too, would involve a small amount of sanity checking.
     
  9. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    7,029
    Likes Received:
    14,357
    This has been suggested before.

    Please bear in mind that this would be more powerful in terms of killing reactive units than the current Fireteam rules, as you would almost always be able to force some unopposed rolls on the target. Although there would be a higher chance of losing one of the Fireteam members.

    So yes, it would require substantial changes to Coordinated Orders.
     
    meikyoushisui likes this.
  10. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2018
    Messages:
    3,480
    Likes Received:
    2,678
    They could be AVA2 Haris. Unfortunately that's the best it can get and takes up a Haris slot. So a Bao Haris is only 2. But can have more Duo.
     
  11. AmPm

    AmPm Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2019
    Messages:
    208
    Likes Received:
    362
    Link Teams would be fine if CB would stop allowing mixed teams and got rid of the god damned Wildcard nonsense.

    Nobody freaks out about a Core Link of linetroopers, or an link of all one kind of HI.
     
  12. Elric of Grans

    Elric of Grans Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    150
    Likes Received:
    262
    Riot Grrls?
     
  13. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    3,872
    Likes Received:
    7,335
    Those are definitely an exception, as they are a well-optimized set of profiles with a very marked discount for frenzy. Although with the N4 changes to HI prices and army size, pure HI links might actually make a modest comeback.
     
  14. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2017
    Messages:
    597
    Likes Received:
    786
    I would use two or three model links for movement pretty extensively. I already do that in Tohaa - my aggressive triads see the burst mostly as a nice bonus, and generally care more about getting the order efficiency of moving a specialist alongside something else.

    Re; the rest of the conversation, not the biggest fan of the infinite wildcard stuff. But there has to be a midway point between that and "lol you'll take your full brigada link and you'll like it!"
     
  15. cazboab

    cazboab O12 prisoner 627

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2017
    Messages:
    1,033
    Likes Received:
    1,407
    Everyone has almost equal access to powerful fireteams, generic armies being the exception. This means that taking away from fireteams hurts everyone, particularly the NA2 lists that are essentially built around the concept of the fireteam.

    Mitigate the weakness instead. Let non sectorial armies use a comand token for a sort of reactive coordinated order, that let's several troopers act as a psudofireteam for one ARO, giving buffs in the form of burst and bs bonus/debuff to the enemy.

    Or even just let suppressive fire be called as an ARO with a comand token.

    Power creep is inevitable, so why not use it to balance itself?
     
    Jumara likes this.
  16. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2017
    Messages:
    2,853
    Likes Received:
    4,961
    I would use Duos and Haris teams. Cores are just too vulnerable; you need some bonuses to make them viable

    Would I change the bonuses? Yes, I'd get rid of the +3 BS myself.
     
    Nuada Airgetlam likes this.
  17. darthchapswag

    darthchapswag Shandian Strike Team

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2018
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    194
    Agreed.

    Although something I've been toying with is whether changing the +3 to -3 (a la Suppressive Fire) would work.
    Changes it from an offensive buff to a defensive one.

    Been trying to figure out what the second and third order effects would be of slapping non-MSV counterable mimetism on a fireteam though... :confused:
     
    Dragonstriker likes this.
  18. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic King Canute

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2019
    Messages:
    510
    Likes Received:
    821
    I think I’m in the same boat as other posters who would use small fireteams for order efficiency purposes.

    My personal favorite “fix” for the core fireteam bonuses would be to replace the +3 five-man bonus with a flat adjustment using the new syntax, preferably: BS Attack (BS=15), Discover (+3)

    The benefit there is that it provides a significant boost to cheaper troops, but there’s a diminishing return for high BS wildcards or more powerful core linkable troops. Most of the top-shelf linkable shooters are BS 13-14, so they’d still get a little bump, and allowing high-BS wildcards is less of a balance problem. Anything with BS 12 breaks even, and it provides a buff for troops that are lowly BS 10-11 line troopers—meaning SWC line troops might see a little more action. It also creates an incentive for factions with linkable high-BS shooters to deploy those troops solo or in a haris since they’ll lose less if they aren’t in a full core than they do now.

    There are a couple of troops that might be too buffed by this—I’m thinking specifically of Dakinis and Moderators. In the case of Moderators, the fact that they’re each pretty squishy means taking even one out eliminates the bonus, and their linkable heavy hitters are already getting a nerf from the change, so it’s probably a wash.

    Dakinis...not sure what the best option there is. They really don’t need a free +1 BS on top of the current core bonus and access to supportware/apsaras. I *think* I’d rather they just get a regular BS increase to 12 and go up in cost, so they end up breaking even?
     
  19. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2018
    Messages:
    3,480
    Likes Received:
    2,678
    I think core teams should only get one bonus. Not +3 BS AND Discover. It needs to be one or the other.
     
    SpectralOwl likes this.
  20. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,335
    Likes Received:
    2,708
    What if the bonus was a choice.

    +3 BS or +1 B.

    Or a more gradiated change.
    3 man = +1 B.
    4 man = +1 BS, +3 discover
    5 man = +2 BS, sixth sense.
     
    SpectralOwl likes this.
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation