1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra Política de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

Wich is your favorite HI Pain Train and why?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by MATRAKA14, Dec 6, 2018.

?

Wich is your favourite pure HI link team?

  1. VETERAN KAZAKS

    9 vote(s)
    8.6%
  2. MOBILE BRIGADA

    5 vote(s)
    4.8%
  3. JANISSARIES

    7 vote(s)
    6.7%
  4. ORC TROOPS (varuna, neoterra, acontecimento)

    4 vote(s)
    3.8%
  5. SURYAT Assault Heavy Infantry

    5 vote(s)
    4.8%
  6. RIOR GRRLS

    24 vote(s)
    22.9%
  7. THE HOLLOW MEN, Tactical assault team

    20 vote(s)
    19.0%
  8. WÚ MÍNG Assault corps (Those Without Name)

    12 vote(s)
    11.4%
  9. DOMARU Butai

    5 vote(s)
    4.8%
  10. Holy Order of HOSPITALLER KNIGHTS of Saint John of Skovorodino

    4 vote(s)
    3.8%
  11. MAGISTER KNIGHTS

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  12. Sacred Military Order of TEUTONIC KNIGHTS

    1 vote(s)
    1.0%
  13. SHÀNG JÍ INVINCIBLES

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  14. ZÚYONG Invincibles, Terra-Cotta Soldiers

    9 vote(s)
    8.6%
  1. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,921
    Likes Received:
    2,574
    Yeah, my context shifted, my mistake. Let me explain what I meant.
    Realistically, E/M is still relatively restricted in the game (despite recent surge in frequency). However, it hurts almost all expensive troops (50+ points) so much that even this amount is already impacting choices when list buibuilding, to the point people are praising Veteran troops.
    However, from the point of the cheaper troops, it's not actually that common that it present a serious threat.
     
  2. natetehaggresar

    natetehaggresar Backlogged Painter

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    465
    I for one am glad to see more EM, it punishes lists that over invest in 1 or 2 hitters, and a lot of chaff to round out orders.

    A LI list with 8 competent guys and 2 cheer leaders is less vulnerable to em than a 20 order lists with 2 Rambo's. EM the rambos and it might be good game.
     
    inane.imp and DukeofEarl like this.
  3. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    2,405
    Likes Received:
    2,597
    The Wu Ming come in at about the same cost as Yadu, because unlike Yadu there's an additional tax to playing them in the form of a 29pt KHD Ninja. You can't run an HI pain train without KHD support, especially if they don't at least have stealth.

    I think actually this shows that you don't really understand what's valued in the game. One of the selling points to popular units like the Su Jian is the fact that you can continuously top it up to keep it in fighting shape and continue to play with it aggressively. Do you do it every game? No, but do you often do it in games that need you to take and hold ground and weather your opponent's turn? Yes.

    Some missions ride or die on keeping a model contesting something. In these scenarios it's absolutely worth it to top up, especially when the success rate for being able to doctor with WIP15 rerolls is such a high percentage. Seriously, do the math on it Nemo for the success rate on using 1 reroll and come back to me on this. If you think that's a reason to not do it then I'm honestly surprised you don't instantly freeze with analysis paralysis everytime you pick up a dice because basically anything you do that requires a roll will give tremendously worse odds.

    (for people who don't want to do the math, he's complaining about a 1/16 or 6.25% failure rate, or a 93.75% success rate. That's apparently really bad or something.)


    I think you actually don't understand how pain train lists work. If you're not running limited insertion the list basically is just the pain train and a few friends. Aleph have the easiest time sorting out the supporting and backup cast thanks to Proxies being cheap and giving alot of flexibility in options.


    Imperial Service
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    WÚ MÍNG HMG / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 39)
    WÚ MÍNG Boarding Shotgun + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 33)
    WÚ MÍNG (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 31)
    WÚ MÍNG MULTI Rifle + Light Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 39)
    WÚ MÍNG (Fireteam: Duo) Chain Rifle, Submachine Gun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25)
    SOPHOTECT Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 31)
    YUDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    HÙSÒNG Yaókòng HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    CELESTIAL GUARD Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    CELESTIAL GUARD Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]2 [​IMG]1
    NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29)
    PANGGULING (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)

    3.5 SWC | 300 Points

    This is something along the lines of your bog standard Wu Ming core link. As you can see, there's not alot in there besides the Wu Ming link, you ride or die on their success. Nemo, welcome to pain train lists. This is how they work. I'm not saying you have to enjoy their playstyle, but bemoaning that somehow Aleph have been hard done by is frankly stupid when they're pretty much on par with other existing stuff that gets used, and they even get to keep their own unique spin on the unit while they're at it.

    Compare that to a Yadu link


    Operations Subsection of the S.S.S.
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    YADU (Number 2) Combi Rifle, E/Marat / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 32)
    YADU (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, E/Marat / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 32)
    YADU Lieutenant MULTI Rifle, E/Marat, Drop Bears (Throwing Weapon) / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 36)
    YADU (NCO) HMG / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (2 | 41)
    YADU Heavy Rocket Launcher, Submachine Gun / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (2 | 35)
    SOPHOTECT Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 31)
    YUDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    LAMEDH Rebot Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    LAMEDH Rebot Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    NETROD . (0 | 4)
    NETROD . (0 | 4)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]4
    PROXY Mk.1 Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 14)
    PROXY Mk.2 MULTI Sniper Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 24)
    PROBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    PROBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    CSU (Specialist Operative) Rifle + Light Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Now you could shuffle some things around, switch the HRLs up and make a proxy carry the HRL instead, or you could fold it down into a 10-12 order list and put some other attack units in there but as you can see it's not that different from the Wu Ming.


    The following all frequently pack E/M weapons
    • Ariadna
    • Nomads
    • Aleph
    • NA2
    • Haqqislam
    These factions now utilise Jammers
    • Pan-O
    • Nomads
    • Haqqislam
    And the following normally present a hacking threat that needs to be circumvented by HI pain trains
    • Nomads
    • Haqqislam
    • Aleph
    • CA
    • Nomads

    But sure, you keep telling yourself being unhackable and immune to E/M weaponry and Jammers
    is something that definitely will not come up often. Meanwhile the ISS player who is having his Wu Ming's brains hacked out will tell you you are absolutely insane. It's fairly safe to say the YJ forum side has come to the conclusion, for Invincible Army, the poster child of HI pain train lists that Engineer+KHD is a non negotiable cornerstone of building a list, which isn't a surprise because it's the same damn template Wu Ming lists have been following for years.

    That is how prevalent Isolation, Hacking, and E/M threats are that we build lists like that and it's only increased over time. If you think otherwise perhaps it's time to pull your head out of the sand and actually take a look around.
     
    #63 Triumph, Dec 12, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2018
    inane.imp, Solar, Ayadan and 5 others like this.
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,040
    Likes Received:
    7,560
    I for one am unhappy to see more E/M. It further promotes the idea that Infinity is meant to be played with lots of cheap chaff and risks completely negating vast sections of the units available considering it's increasingly making an appearance on cheaper units.

    A list of 8 good troopers and 2 cheerleaders risks grinding to a halt by E/M, regardless if it's HI or not, compared to a list with 20 orders spread out over reasonably competetent LI and SK.
    Unless those 8 troops contain a reasonable amount of non-HI/TAG veterans.
     
    Triumph, Abrilete, Sedral and 2 others like this.
  5. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,921
    Likes Received:
    2,574
    @Triumph wow, seriously?

    If you don't understand why KHD Ninja is not a tax but a benefit, I don't think there is anything we can usefully discuss here.

    If you don't understand why the OS list you put up here will be disassembled with ridiculous ease by any half-competent opponent... I mean, do you seriously don't see how even the WuMing list you posted is ways better than the Yadu list?

    As for statistics, sure, it's "only" 6,25% chance to kill the Yadu. After spending Order and a Command Token. It even goes lower when you keep spending command tokens, did you know? You're still using resources to fix an already operational unit.

    And no, I don't know anyone who plays SuJian because you can repair it to max. Did you know you can do the same to TAGs? :scream: That must be why they are so popular!!!

    I'm done. Let's pretend you won the argument and we'll be seeing Yadu pain trains everywhere
     
  6. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    721
    Likes Received:
    736
    About TAGs, i think this is more a meta problem. TAGs are good, and remote presence TAGs are definitely a pain to remove. It's not impossible, but it will cost many orders if the TAG is properly supported.

    About the whole pain train topic, i think that you misunderstood something: this topic is not about pain train everywhere, saying they are good and all. It is about comparing pain trains from various factions. There are other options than pain train lists. Options that are usually better, because more flexible and more resilient - a pain train is by nature a huge part of your list, and you need it to perform well or lose.
    I personnaly prefer mixed yadu haris or lone yadus (honestly an NCO yadu does not need a fireteam to perform very well) to yadu core. But, compare for example a janissary core and a yadu core. You can't say the yadu is not at least as good, if not better, even with janissary ackbar doctor (for janissaries don't have cubes, if you complain about a 6% chance to waste an order and a troop, don't ever try using ackbar doctor, it's five times as much ...)
     
    DukeofEarl likes this.
  7. Sedral

    Sedral Invincible Officier

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    435
    Likes Received:
    699
    Unless you're shooting them with viral ammo (quite uncommon ammo) they're just as sturdy as zuyongs, and just slightly less than wu-mings. So i'm curious, how would you easily dismantle the aforementionned fireteam in a way that wouldn't be just as effective against wu-mings (more or less, +1 PH and +1ARM usually won't make much of a difference)?

    As an aside, i'm not a fan of number 2 in fireteam, so i'd play a 2nd forward obs just to have 2 specialist who can double-up as corner guards.
     
  8. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    852
    Likes Received:
    1,782
    He's not talking about dismantling the fireteam, he's talking about starving them for orders.

    That OSS list has 4 orders that cannot defend themselves and 2 others that can only flash pulse aro. Sure, you can hide those with terrain, but it still means the opponent only needs a couple good smoke throws to block your link's sight, and they can run roughshod over your army, killing your orders and making your team lose so much of their power. Sure, the link will always generate 6 orders on their own, but that isn't exactly a lot.

    So yeah, having lots of orders, but not a lot of ways to protect them or use them isn't that great.
     
    saint and Nemo No Name like this.
  9. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    2,405
    Likes Received:
    2,597
    If you don't understand how a model you are forced to include to cover a weakness is a tax, you clearly don't understand the concept of a tax. The drawback of being hackable is that you need to spend points on other very specific models to cover for that drawback.


    I'll let you in on a secret Nemo, any command tokens you finish the game with are literally worthless. Resources exist to be spent, and in this case you're expending resources to further ensure you complete a mission objective which is hold a zone by still being alive. Having more than 1 wound is directly beneficial and spending resources to achieve this is worthwhile.


    Yes... that is a reason the Pan-O tags are alot better than say the Guijia, because it's a hell of alot easier to keep them in shape. Their success rate in repairs is significantly higher thanks to being able to reroll, unlike trying to keep the Guijia in one piece spending orders to risk a 35% failure rate is actually not worth it whereas repairing Remote Presence TAGs or the Su Jian is actually great.

    Were you trying to make an argument here or something? You seem to be struggling again.


    The Lamedh along with the TO sniper exist as ARO pieces. If you go second you're expecting to probably lose the Lamedh if your opponent gets very aggressive, maybe the TO Proxy as well but if they don't have an MSV2 piece they'll probably opt just to bypass it.

    Let's assume your opponent has a very aggressive, very good first turn and gets across the table with minimal casualties with the express interest of culling easy orders that don't fight back that good as you're suggesting. Let's assume they kill both Netrods, both Lamedh, and both Probots, hell let's even give them the TO sniper because it doesn't even matter in terms of orders. So they kill 7 models and remove 6 orders.

    So now it's our turn. We use 2 command tokens and punt the Proxy and CSU over to group 1.

    We now have 8 models in group 1 with 9 usuable orders for the link team. That's considerably more than the 6 we were suggesting.

    Let me repeat that. We have 9 orders to use on the pain train. Most other pain train links can only use ten orders at the best of times. I don't know about you but when I've effectively only impacted a link team's ability to fight by 1 order I don't normally consider that mission success for order starvation.

    Nemo's suggestion that somehow the Aleph list is dramatically easier to starve out of orders than the Wu Ming one is demonstrably false. Both lists pack an ARO piece in the TRbot/Proxy sniper, both pack some 8pt baggage bot orders, and both pack Flash pulse ARO help. If you kill the Chaiyi, Pango, and Husong the Wu Ming link only has 8 orders. because the TO Ninja's order can't be pooled.

    They have one less order available than the Aleph list and they took less than half the amount of casualties
    . Do you see the logic failure here?

    With that said, keep in mind if you don't like the types of models that tend to get used as ablative armour do keep in mind you can adjust these lists by downsizing them to feature more aggressive pieces. It'd be entirely possible to say drop the Probots, CSU, and Netrods and create a single combat group and add Dart for 10 models. It's a shitload harder to do this for Wu Ming, because they're way less flexible in list building though.
     
    #69 Triumph, Dec 12, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2018
    inane.imp likes this.
  10. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    852
    Likes Received:
    1,782
    @Triumph I still think there's a lot more to consider than raw order count. If your oponent was able to kill that many models, they probably have something positioned to ARO back at you, and they may even decide to trade a model if they think they can kill more than one Yadu in a single ARO, let's say with a shotgun or a rocket.

    Placing a lot of "empty" orders in a list can be a problem. So can be only having 10 orders on the list. But the good thing of having 10 orders is that (ideally) none of your models is expendable. That means you sill have something to do even if your big guys die.

    You talk as if there was only one way to play 5 model HI links, and that's just not true. And I don't agree with the idea the KHD Ninja is a tax either. It's a very good model that most players with access to it were going to run anyways, so calling it a "tax" seems very misleading.
     
    inane.imp, saint and Nemo No Name like this.
  11. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    2,405
    Likes Received:
    2,597
    Sure. I have nothing against playing the single combat group pain trains. As I said previously in both posts, you can fold these lists down in order count to improve value of the models in them, and as I said it's easier to achieve with Aleph because they're far more flexible in list building. My personal preference is spare models though.


    The Ninja is a tax, that doesn't mean it's not a good model because it is. But the Ninja doesn't actually do alot. It exists to attempt to zap a hacker, and if they're not around, she presses a button and then really doesn't do much.

    Unfortunately there's not alot the profile can do when it's only armed with a BS11 TacBow. Doesn't have mines or repeaters or anything, can't go suppressive fire mode. So generally speaking most games your Ninja will use 2, maybe 3 orders over 3 turns. They really don't do much in that sense.

    It's not like say a Guilang, or Dart. Those kinds of camo models can find all sorts of things to get up to and spend orders on.

    The Ninja on the other hand is very one dimensional and some games she'll literally do nothing but sit in camo state because there were no hackers to zap and no buttons she needed or was capable of pushing (if your opponent is covering the button the Ninja isn't the best at cracking the defense, the wu ming will run up and handle it).

    That's 29pts of not doing anything (nearly 10% of your list) but still has to be in the list in the event you run into a hacker. That's why she's a tax when you're list building.
     
  12. natetehaggresar

    natetehaggresar Backlogged Painter

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    465
    @DaRedOne , I agree @Triumph is a bit over aggressive, but it's because someone else shit posts about Yadu every freaking time they come up in any thread on this forum.

    It's okay that some people don't like Yadu. But it's getting freaking tiresome seeing the same person's same shit posts about units you actually like and are excited about.

    I know for one I'm a bit tired of it.
     
    inane.imp, DukeofEarl and DaRedOne like this.
  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,040
    Likes Received:
    7,560
    From a different perspective; my Ninjas in ISS and vanilla has often experienced the KHD to be a hindrance. Once I've identified the LT or a really high value target such as a Swiss HMG, having a Ninja break HD and beeline (trusting marker state to make it safe) to the high value target has been game winners.
    To often I've had the Ninja die to stray hacking AROs. (And remember, the correct play is to put the Ninja behind the Al'Fasid and shoot the Mutta with the bow, that way you don't hacked. Shoot the Muttah with the bow. Shoot the Muttah with the bow)
     
  14. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    852
    Likes Received:
    1,782
    For the record: I think Yadu are pretty good. I'd use them if I played ALEPH.

    However, I strongly disagree with the KHD ninja being that bad or useless. Maybe it's my personal preference for melee, but I find a lot of uses for camoed MA models most of the time I field them. Stealth is a boon, and being able to shank skirmirshers in the back reliably is also very good.

    Yadu are still not Heavy Infantry, though. And they are a bit weaker than actual 2 Wound heavy infantry, even if they have their own benefits. This topic was supposed to talk about Heavy Infantry models, bringing them up was kinda pointless
     
  15. natetehaggresar

    natetehaggresar Backlogged Painter

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    465
    @DaRedOne yeah they certainly don't fall squarely in the rubric the OP layed out, but they are the Aleph equivalent to a basic HI, jannisary, yu zong, mobile brigada, suryat, orc type unit.

    It's certainly not a direct analog, but they're similar. Kinda like how daiki are very much line infantry for Aleph.
     
  16. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    2,405
    Likes Received:
    2,597
    I want to reiterate that nobody is calling the Ninja bad here. But she is often unable to do anything in the Wu Ming set up because she's a lynchpin model and you can't afford to commit her because she needs to be held back until it's time to hack things.

    If you could suddenly make the Wu Ming unhackable and not be forced to bring a KHD, you'll find that would be a huge boost in list flexibility for ISS. That's how she is in terms of a tax, she's not super cheap and if you could turn around right now and say no Wu Ming player needed to always have the KHD ninja with them anymore they can take the new and super improved Lunah you'd probably see alot of interest in that direction instead.

    At the end of the day you are forced to bring a KHD, it's a tax. While you can bring a good KHD, you still have to bring a KHD, not a sniper, not mines, not whatever you felt like. You have to bring a KHD. That's why it's a tax. The Yadu obviously escape that tax which is a cool perk.


    For better or worse I think Invincible Army and to a lesser extent TAK have unfortunately caused the lines of what is actually HI to blur somewhat. For example for intents and purposes are Yadu really less HI than the less sturdy Zencha? Or Haidao which they have a much better BTS than?
     
    #76 Triumph, Dec 12, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2018
  17. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    1,216
    Likes Received:
    1,167
    Hence why I have tried to stay out of that discussion (admittedly not very well)
     
  18. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    852
    Likes Received:
    1,782
    You know, from personal experience I have in fact run an HI pain train similar to Wu Ming (My Riot Grrls) without KHD support, and I won the match despite my opponent fielding 2 AHDs on his list.

    I just shot the hackers dead and avoided his repeaters :D

    Sure, this won't work on every mission, and if I'm bringing HIs to a mission like Transmission Matrix I'm bringing 2 KHDs next time, but the fact is saying the Ninja is a tax on Wu Ming is kinda pointless. Hell, an EVO hacker could be enough protection for them merely by giving them a Firewall, since KHDs can't hurt HIs either.
     
    inane.imp, krossaks and DukeofEarl like this.
  19. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    2,405
    Likes Received:
    2,597
    Yeah... I'm kinda throwing that one in the your opponent goofed badly if he failed to punish you there. Failed to coral you with repeaters, then failed to position the hackers so you couldn't walk HI up them and shoot them from outside of hacking range?

    Seems like a self inflicted loss there.


    Fairy dust is never enough of a protection. You need to actively remove the hacker. You can't afford to screw around constantly eating normal rolls for immobilise and isolation while trying to move or fight under a repeater. 15% if you keep giving them freebies adds up, and they'll go after the tinbot guy first. Once that gets Oblivioned out of the link you're looking at 30% every time after that.

    You're asking to get fucked badly doing that, it's not a sound decision to try and build the list without the KHD.

    This is ignoring the part where if you don't present a KHD threat AROs aren't the only problem from these hackers, getting actively immobilised then shot out of links becomes a real threat. Not to mention they may just offensively pitcher and zap your supportware hacker off the table to remove Fairy Dust if they realise you can't actually punish them for throwing deep repeaters.
     
    #79 Triumph, Dec 12, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2018
  20. theGricks

    theGricks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2017
    Messages:
    755
    Likes Received:
    1,620
    I love Jannissaries because of the Akbar Doctor. Sure he cannot reroll, but I take that risk to Akbar Doctor and bring that HMG back up to full wounds. They are a basic, arm4 bts3 bs13 platform with shotguns and rifles. Good all around.