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Why would you ever choose HMG Tankhunter over Spetnaz?

Discussion in 'Ariadna' started by Niebieskooki, Sep 14, 2018.

  1. Yvain

    Yvain Well-Known Member

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    He is not especially fragile. Arm 2 isn't even that bad, that is the standard armor of most MI. The issue if there is one with the Spetz, is that he is that he stacks two of the best combat abilities in the game as his defense on top of camo. This means he will usually choose when to fight and when he doesn't the math will still usually be in his favor.

    Most units use camo as armor. Using his ability to weight dice rolls as his armor and then has armor on top of that.

    Tank Hunters shouldn't get infiltration. They are arm 3, camo, BS 12, with amazing weapon options. Plenty of armies would love to have that. If you give them infiltration, why take streloks or Scouts?

    The Spetz is probably the most point efficient model in the game. It has everything it needs to do its main mission perfectly. Lots of the profiles in TAK are awesome, but they just aren't taken because units like Spetz are so good. That was always the case, Russians had a lot of optimized models and the other sectorials had the more specialized or wacky versions.

    The problem is they didn't really do any changes. All the point efficient optimized stuff is in one sectorial that has killer link options and no AVA limited. Spetz are just the worst example and are now AVA4. Taking 4 Spetz HMGs doesn't even seem like a bad choice. Especially when you can still fit in a ton of cheap camo specialists.

    Personally, I think SWC and a couple points on the Spetz is what needs to happen. Something like:

    HMG 2 SWC 40
    Sniper 1 SWC 36
    BSG 35
    Rifle 33
     
  2. Grey Templar

    Grey Templar Member

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    Because specialists. The Tank Hunter, outside of the CoC one, can't do objectives. And the CoC is meant to hide somewhere safe. The Tank Hunter is also 4-2 movement, so he is much slower than a Strelok or Scout.

    The sectorial could also use more Infiltration anyway. Only the Scout has it, which is very surprising. I would have expected some more.

    Infiltration might also make the AP rifle/Adhesive launcher a more attractive option. Heck, make it exclusive to a specific profile.

    Tankhunter(Infiltration, Minelayer): AP Rifle, Adhesive Launcher, Antipersonnel Mines, D-charges. Pistol, Knife. Cost 27 pts SWC .5

    Mines seem to be a Kazak thing. So give it Minelayer and infiltration. It fits the Tank Hunters being an ambush unit.
     
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  3. Thaddius

    Thaddius Well-Known Member

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    It's an APHMG over a regular HMG as well though if you're going Tankhunter Portable Autocannon is the money maker imo
     
  4. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Well, the Spetsnaz effectively has a Shock HMG (unless the target has Bioimmunity then you choose not to use MM1)
     
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  5. Thaddius

    Thaddius Well-Known Member

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    As the "Tankhunters" name implies it is to go after armour. I can see the benefit of having high burst if you're really worried about armour but the Spetznaz is probably better allrounder unit
     
  6. Yvain

    Yvain Well-Known Member

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    Units are supposed to have strengths and weaknesses. They aren't supposed to just do everything.
     
  7. TriggerPuller9000

    TriggerPuller9000 Poverty Orde Wingate

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    I'm not sure why people are stating that Spetsnaz are an "optimized" profile. Compare the HMG Spetsnaz to the HMG Intruder...

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Same weapon, very similar role. The Spetsnaz has Ambush Camo, 4-4 move, and MML2 in its favor. He also has MA2 and CC20 (aka bloat) on a profile that wants to plink at enemies from 16-32".

    The Intruder, on the other hand, has MSV2, better BS, better ARM, and better WIP (i.e., stats that actually matter for its intended role). It doesn't have any of that CC bloat, and it has grenades in case someone gets close.

    Both are good, sure, but the Spetsnaz HMG is far from optimized. The Intruder HMG is inarguably more optimal for its task.
     
  8. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    The fact that the Spetsnaz is universally popular despite the CC stats is an even better testament to how good it is.

    The Intruder's also a great unit, but it's definitely not better than the Spetsnaz. 4-2 vs 4-4 is a big difference for an aggressive gunfighter, MSV2 is pricey and not always useful or helpful, and not having a source of Shock has a big impact on their overall role.
     
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  9. Yvain

    Yvain Well-Known Member

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    In addition to barakiel's comments I would add.

    MSV 2 is nice, but it is a sometimes ability. Not everyone has camo or mim. WIP doesn't matter for a combat unit. 1 arm does, but it is a minor upgrade. The 1 BS certainly does.

    MML2 is pretty much always useful. You always get shock and most models will be in cover of some kind. 1 point of BS is not as good when you are minus 3 verse most models. MAL2 doesn't help to shoot, but it does gives access to stealth, which is kind of huge. Also sneaking up and murdering people is great especially when it means you can shoot a much more dudes in the back. He is also 4 points cheaper.
     
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  10. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, Intruders are really good, but the Spetsnaz has more going for it as an all-purpose killer.
     
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  11. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    The HMG Spetsnaz already has Stealth from Camouflage so MA2 is mostly bloat on the long range profiles.

    MA2 is very useful on the AD versions though.
     
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  12. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    Don't think, there's a chamo infiltrator unite with special ammunition in the 8-16 rangeband. Think that is perhaps too much.
     
  13. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Daofei multi rifle/hacker?

    2 wounds and BS13 to boot!
     
  14. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    Wanted to mention too that the Spetsnaz benefits a lot more from its Camo than than the Intruder does. You put a Camo token in a Nomad DZ, maybe with a smoke tosser nearby, and it's "Oh, that's an Intruder, unless the opponent mysteriously held back an Infiltrator to try and mess with me."

    You put a Spetsnaz in a DZ, and it's one Camo token out of several that could be hiding anything from an AP mine to a EXP ARO to... Nothing, an empty Ambush token. That's crazy, it's almost as good as Hidden Deployment but lets you mess with your opponent in a more direct fashion. I feel like the Strelok was made just to let TAK keep playing that game without even needing to buy a Tank Hunter for your list.
     
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  15. Niebieskooki

    Niebieskooki Blue Sun Lieutenant

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    There's a unit with 8-32 rangeband special ammo weapon.
     
  16. TriggerPuller9000

    TriggerPuller9000 Poverty Orde Wingate

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    Guys...you are making counterpoints to points I never made. Of course the spetsnaz is good. But... he's not optimized. Stealth, which he already has from camo, and cc14 would be more optimal, as objective fact.

    I'm disputing the claim of "optimal," not "good."
     
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  17. Niebieskooki

    Niebieskooki Blue Sun Lieutenant

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    As much as right you are about optimized part, does it really matter that it's not 100% optimized if it's so good? If it's still better (subjectively ofcourse) than factualy better optimised unit?
     
  18. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    If the goal is to design a high performance car...

    ...And I design a car with better acceleration, handling, top speed, brake response than anyone else...

    ...And it does all these things and ALSO has a cup holder.

    Is the cup holder considered bloat?

    Some might say yes. But if it's still the best, and you also have a place to put your coffee, I don't consider that to be any kind of loss.
     
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  19. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    And there are worse skills to have than MA2.

    Now, all that said, how badly would I be screwing myself over by not taking a Spetsnaz in vanilla? I get the idea that TAK pretty much runs the show, but it's the least attractive part of Ariadna for me. I've accepted Vet. Kazaks as the only clear-headed way to get a Mormaer model on the table, but I'd rather not just go straight TAK, or TAK lite.
     
  20. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    That doesn't help me. The faction(s) or weapon(s) would be nice so that I haven't to search every army list.