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Why would you ever choose HMG Tankhunter over Spetnaz?

Discussion in 'Ariadna' started by Niebieskooki, Sep 14, 2018.

  1. Niebieskooki

    Niebieskooki Blue Sun Lieutenant

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    So I was wondering why would ever pick HMG version of tankhunter over spetnaz? AP ammuniton definitely isn't worth losing marsmanship L2. Now that he receives FD1 there might be slight advantage in positioning but it's relatively new. So why else would someone choose tankhunter instead of spetnaz?
     
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  2. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    AP is actually pretty great if you need to tackle an ARM8+ TAG. The Tankie is also a little tougher.

    But yeah, ever since the Spetsnaz came out it has pretty much overshadowed the Tankie APHMG, he still gets taken, but mainly as a backup in lists that already have 1-2 Spetsnaz HMGs.
     
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  3. Niebieskooki

    Niebieskooki Blue Sun Lieutenant

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    Which is like once or twice per game, per 5% games. I just can't quite graps why would you not invest those 3 points more to get Marsmanship L2? Unless you maxed out on Spetnaz AVA. But then, why would you really invest in third HMG instead of Autocannon or ML?
     
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  4. Brother Smoke

    Brother Smoke Bureau Trimurti Representative

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    Pretty much this, and I'll add that on S10 you can place the tankie in some slightly better places thanks to courage

    It's kinda poetic that I converted my second HMG Spetz out of a sniper one and a set of tankie arms
     
  5. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    This is pretty much the issue, especially when there are other ways to murder TAGs in TAK (hi Antipodes!).

    Both troopers fill the same niche, and most of the time the Spetsnaz is the superior choice, so it gets picked first.

    For the record I don't think there's anything wrong with the Tankie APHMG, I would rather see the Spetsnaz HMG reined in/differentiated than the Tankie get buffed.
     
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  6. Niebieskooki

    Niebieskooki Blue Sun Lieutenant

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    I would also like to have spetnaz changed. Definitelly too strong in comparision to rest HMG options in roster. I think tankhunter could have cost ~30 while spetnaz over 40. I don't like how I feel forced to have to use them and feel dirty when I do.

    Or make AP ammo actually reduce cover arm as well.
     
  7. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    It's not even a matter of price for me, I Just want them to do different things.

    For example, if the Spetsnaz HMG lost Ambush Camo for mimetism (like the AD versions) they'd be about the same price but it would be a much more meaningful decision (Marker state vs. Marksmanship 2, AP ammo vs Shock, 4-4 Move vs 4-2 with FD1 and better ARM).
     
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  8. Brother Smoke

    Brother Smoke Bureau Trimurti Representative

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    There is no question AP ammo needs some looking at, but it's true that as it is the Spetz should get some sort of a change.

    What change? I'm not sure. The Spetz covers a pretty big role in vanilla as the only attack piece that can really go toe to toe with something like an HI link barring disposable templates. I like @colbrook 's idea of mimetism instead of camo, though it would also make it unable to use surprise, so it's a pretty big nerf
     
  9. Alkasyn

    Alkasyn Well-Known Member

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    You'd never pick a Tankhunter over the Specnaz. That's it.
     
  10. Niebieskooki

    Niebieskooki Blue Sun Lieutenant

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    How about we go crazy the other way around? Let's make him quasi-2W with shock and NWI and bumb his price significantly to 60-70 range. It's Spetnaz, they are the best of the best, surely they are also insanely resiliant. At the same time it Tankhunter becomes the only HMG in ~30 points price range. But that's tricky since they are also AD trooper. Giving Immunity ad NWI to only one profile would be pretty weird. Or so I think. What's wrong with 2 wound rambo parachutist?

    On the sidenote, taking Lore into consideration i feel like most Arainda profiles should have higher PH and more NWI all around the army, so i might be just biased.
     
    #10 Niebieskooki, Sep 14, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018
  11. Alri

    Alri Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Actualy AP Hmg Tankhunter isnt so much worst as on first sight you would think:

    Stats for Surprise attack vs Fusilier HMG (12BS Dmg 15 in +3 range band):

    Kazak Spetsnazs (Camo) - HMG vs. Fusiliers - HMG

    Active Player

    83.38% Kazak Spetsnazs (Camo) inflicts 2 or more wounds on Fusiliers (Dead)
    Failures
    12.32% Neither player succeeds
    Reactive Player
    4.31% Fusiliers inflicts 1 or more wounds on Kazak Spetsnazs (Camo) (Unconscious)

    TankHunters - AP HMG vs. Fusiliers - HMG

    Active Player
    75.48% TankHunters inflicts 1 or more wounds on Fusiliers (Unconscious)
    38.33% TankHunters inflicts 2 or more wounds on Fusiliers (Dead)

    Failures
    19.66% Neither player succeeds
    Reactive Player
    4.86% Fusiliers inflicts 1 or more wounds on TankHunters (Unconscious)

    Actualy not so big difference.

    Now if you consider something more tanky for example ORC:

    Kazak Spetsnazs (Camo) - HMG vs. Orc Troops - HMG

    Active Player

    71.65% Kazak Spetsnazs (Camo) inflicts 1 or more wounds on Orc Troops (1 W)
    33.31% Kazak Spetsnazs (Camo) inflicts 2 or more wounds on Orc Troops (Unconscious)
    8.37% Kazak Spetsnazs (Camo) inflicts 3 or more wounds on Orc Troops (Dead)
    Failures
    23.66% Neither player succeeds
    Reactive Player
    4.69% Orc Troops inflicts 1 or more wounds on Kazak Spetsnazs (Camo) (Unconscious)

    TankHunters - AP HMG vs. Orc Troops - HMG

    Active Player
    69.60% TankHunters inflicts 1 or more wounds on Orc Troops (1 W)
    31.40% TankHunters inflicts 2 or more wounds on Orc Troops (Unconscious)
    7.71% TankHunters inflicts 3 or more wounds on Orc Troops (Dead)
    Failures
    24.60% Neither player succeeds
    Reactive Player
    5.80% Orc Troops inflicts 1 or more wounds on TankHunters (Unconscious)

    The odds are getting closer. For something like Tags is obviously the Tankhunter far more effective. Kazak specnatzs is supperior for killing V:Dogged, V:NWI stuff. For most of the common stuff they have not so much difference in odds. So its alot about what do you prefer.

    And in ITS X the Tankhunters got Forward Deployment L1 which on many tables provides supperior position, potencialy saving multiple orders and can make the Tankhunters Supperior. The +1Wip and +1 Arm is also something to consider.
     
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  12. Yvain

    Yvain Well-Known Member

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    Tankhunter AP HMG is better in suppressive fire. FD1, strong weapon, and 1 point of armor do give him a pretty solid edge on the defense. You could move once and then go straight in.

    However, the Spetz HMG is one of the best options in the game so of course it would be hard to compete.
     
  13. Disko King

    Disko King Well-Known Member

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    In vanilla Spetnaz has decent chance to tackle TO in cover, TH not that much(+3 range, -3 cover, -6 ODD), firing on 6 is not that great though.
    Move difference is mostly irrelevant to me since they don't mvoe so much around.

    I think it's mostly AP armor that's the problem. It's silly that vs ARM3, you just ignore 1 point of armor for example, while vs ARM 6 you will ignore 3 ARM, so someone who is twice armored gets barely any better protection. If it had more meaningful impact, like always ignore 2-3 armor unless target is arm >5, then you halve it it would make choiche much more interesting. Not to mention ARM is one of the most overpriced stats. So you pay over the top for it, and also you get more punished for it with AP...makes no sense.
     
  14. TriggerPuller9000

    TriggerPuller9000 Poverty Orde Wingate

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    In Vanilla, I almost always run 2 Spetsnaz HMGs and a Tankhunter, but in TAK, the lists I'm building are tight enough on points that it makes a serious difference.

    Those 3 points can be spent upgrading Line Kazaks to FOs (a bigger deal in a Fireteam, flash pulsing fools on 19s), or buying a Warcor. Points, I'm finding, are actually pretty tight in TAK. Given what the Tankhunter brings to the table, I don't see him as a poor compromise versus a second Spetsnaz.
     
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  15. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    I still like the autocannon tankhunter. It has a nice flexibility between strong ARO and decent active turn. And depending on what your opponent is use to vs Ariadna it can be a surprise.
     
  16. Cabaray

    Cabaray Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    My tankhunter autocannon is the most Lucky mothertrucker in the game. He always takes something juicy down.

    My tankhunter hmg mostly proxies as the second Spetsnaz. With 2 hmgs and an autocannon there is not much room die anything else

    Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G930F met Tapatalk
     
  17. Phillimon

    Phillimon Kazak Diplomatic Operative

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    Unless I'm going easy it's always 2x Spets. Always. It's the only thing I would say is an auto include, and outshine the TH APHMG. Ill still use the autocannon tho. Love that profile.
     
  18. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
    Warcor

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    I think Spetznaz would be perfectly fine with Limited Camo + Mimetism. It'd still be a strong unit, just not an autoinclude.

    And the sniper really needs a decrease in SWC...
     
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  19. Niebieskooki

    Niebieskooki Blue Sun Lieutenant

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    I feel like it's not additional camo marker is what makes spetnaz really strong. It's how much of a punch (on EXTREMELY fragile platform to be fair) he brings for his buck.
     
  20. Grey Templar

    Grey Templar Member

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    Most of the older profiles in Ariadna could use a rethinking. Spetznaz and Tank Hunter included.

    Spetsnaz HMG is probably fine. The Sniper rifle should definitely go down 1 SWC, and pick up AP or something. Perhaps they could both use some level of Forward Deployment too.

    Tank Hunters should get Infiltration.

    Really its not that the Spetznaz is too good. Its that many of the other options aren't worth taking. That really goes for all the Sectorials in Ariadna with older profiles.