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Why so serious? Or can someone summarize the negativity

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by BarbeChenue, Nov 20, 2018.

  1. Mikes

    Mikes Well-Known Member

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    But you're fine with the simulated, up-close murder that is the average game of Infinity? Again, perspective.
     
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  2. banthafodder

    banthafodder Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I am fine with simulating an armed conflict between combatants.

    I am even fine with no quarter between combatants and targeted assassinations of non combatants owing to the black ops nature of the game.

    Simulating open season on everyone of a particular ethnic group, however, is a bridge too far for me. Part of it is because my ancestors had to be "civilized with a Krag," among other things.

    But are you asking because you are genuinely curious?

    Or is it because you are just looking to belittle and ridicule the position I offered?
     
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  3. SpectralOwl

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    It's a matter of taste and personal values. Some people can't stomach murder, even in games. Some people hate the sexualised images that show up sometimes in CB's art and sculpts. For a lot of people pretend murder is fine as long as it isn't bundled in with pretend racism, and a few others don't mind the genocide as long as it is dealt with using tact and a good helping of sense. In the case of Uprising however, there was a major shift in image. Up until that point Yu Jing had been portrayed as a highly competent and industrial unified power, evidence that the divides of the past could be overcome to create a collectivist whole who also happened to have a sword and powered armour. Uprising completely destroyed that theme in every aspect except the armour, and there has been no attempt to deal with this major event in fluff from a Yu Jing perspective. This means that a lot of people already invested in the story of the game are stuck with a faction that no longer fits the narrative they bought into, and even goes against their tastes or values. This is the downside of Infinity's living system model; if something happens there's no going back, and that includes both uncomfortable fluff and purchases of overpriced bits of lead and pewter that a stranger on the other side of the world says you can't use now, because pretend racism. I guess this is my answer to the OP's question now, because I ramble when I start typing...
     
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  4. Mikes

    Mikes Well-Known Member

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    I'm asking to show you've accepted that infinity is fiction, but you've chosen to to put emotional weight on a certain part of it. That is of course your personal choice, but should have no no bearing elsewhere.

    Anyhoo, the orginao post I quoted was responding to 'why all the complaining', your example is personal (which is not the same as unimportant), but not representative as to why there're more than a few people who enjoy complaining about little metal man dollies.
     
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  5. atomicfryingpan

    atomicfryingpan Well-Known Member

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    Is it technically war crimes if they weren't convicted? Also how many Japanese people did they really kill? Doubtful it was enough to be considered a genocide.
     
  6. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    We've been over this, the definition of genocide has absolutely nothing to do with a bodycount. It's the intent that matters, and that's from a legal standpoint in terms of treaties. Everytime somebody tries to say otherwise I believe @Section9 has an aneurysm, please think of his health.

    And yes they are war crimes. Come on, think about that one for more than 2 seconds. Or are you arguing that clearly no crimes have ever been committed in every unsolved murder case? Because nobody has been convicted of those yet.
     
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, me, too. Earlier in this thread someone, and get this, trivialised thousands of people's hobby and refuge from life's drudgery on a forum dedicated to discussing that hobby by calling the hobby merely "toy soldiers" and asking people to stop having opinions about their hobby! You and me, we'd never write something that dumb, am I rite?
    Yes, it's absolutely a war crime even if they're not convicted. That said, the numbers I've seen floated look very, very, low for densely populated areas where the entire populace is in open revolt.
    When, for genocide you'd expect something along the lines of 60+%, we're getting numbers more similar to a year of traffic accidents for the area.
     
  8. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    I think this thread has served it's purpose, let's not start arguing the same stupid stuff again.
     
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  9. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    1) Do you know that?

    2) Do you think that is likely to work? I'm going to suggest that it does the opposite of work.
     
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  10. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Also incidentally you don't need to kill anyone to commit genocide, although usually people do. What YJ tried to do to the Japanese people was more apartheid than genocide and the Uprising was a failed enforcement of that.
     
  11. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    1) Yes. There seems to be a curious cluster of yes-men hell bent on creating a hugbox for CB and filtering out negative feedback before it gets to them.

    2) Given 1, it can't make things worse.
     
  12. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Fucking lol.

    Got the stats on that then?
     
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  13. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    1) I think that's essentially just not true. You probably just see it as that way because other people are not nearly so critical as yourself, but there is a common fallacy where people assume other people just aren't willing to kick off about something when actually they just aren't bothered by it.

    2) It absolutely can hurt your argument. And it definitely has happened here.

    Incidentally by saying anyone who disagrees with you is a yes-man you also turn a lot of the community against you.
     
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  14. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @Solar I got that impression when HellLois said he had received no negative feedback about B4ckd00r, and plenty of positive. It's not a matter of not being as critical as me, some things are a matter of opinion and personal taste, but some things aren't.

    And if the mild-mannered feedback is being ignored? Than how can being more strident harm things? Unless, of course, people want more mild-mannered feedback because it's easier to ignore, on some level.
     
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  15. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

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    Everyone is entitled to their opinion, true enough, but these days (on the Internet especially) it seems people forget that everyone else is entitled to their opinion of your opinion.
     
  16. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    HellLois said post Backd00r that he in fact hadn't realised people's criticisms of the event were there, and that it was useful to know and he'd take that away with him for the future. Literally the opposite of what you said happened is what happened. There were reasonable comments that got a reasonable response.

    Firstly you are assuming that mild mannered feedback is ignored and I don't think that's true, and in any case just because nobody comes from on high to thank you for your revelatory opinion doesn't mean it wasn't noted. Secondly, I'll tell you why more strident feedback or, let's call it complaining, hurts you; you don't know how they considered your points before you kicked off but afterwards you basically make the company have to ignore you. They can't fold to screaming and whining on the Internet, that'd be ridiculous, anyone would see this is how you get your way huh? It'd be a farce. As soon as you do that they definitely won't listen to you, whereas before they might have.

    There is also the significance of other members of the community, who might agree and support your point if you put it well, thus garnering your position more strength, but will make memes about how childish you are if you start to kick off, which is exactly what is happening now, where everyone has a bit of a giggle about it.
     
  17. atomicfryingpan

    atomicfryingpan Well-Known Member

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    At this point the amount of aneurysms section 9 has fought off has had to given him superpowers by now. Also to be fair if the case is unsolved that means it's not 100% a murder. Just because people say they committed war crimes doesn't mean they actually did. Sounds like capitalist propaganda to me or worse, nomad propaganda!
     
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  18. atomicfryingpan

    atomicfryingpan Well-Known Member

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    It sounds like @Hecaton needs a hug. We should build a device for him to administer caring tender hugs when he needs them. It could be box shaped! We need to build him a hug box! Think of all the hugs.
     
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  19. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    As it was explained back then, what you got in Uprising was the propaganda of the secessionists and their allies, as intended, to make Yu Jing look bad focusing on the Imperial Secret Service who is not the average Yu Jing army, or even the representatives of Yu Jing acting as they are supposed to act.

    In 3rd offensive you got the more heroic and noble Yu Jing army and their perspective on the events taking extra casualties to avoid killing Japanese civilians and blaming ISS for the atrocities, but I guess nobody commented on these. or the heroic actions of Yu Jing during the 3rd offensive.

    I think it is important to understand Infinity's background is mature and touches such subjects and has amoral characters on the scene, Yu Jing have a strong duality in their state/ empire system that do reflect on each other like Ying Yang, PanO has the same secret service with the same "moral" codes, just not the political backing to allow them to have a paramilitary army of their own.
     
  20. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
    Warcor

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    One of the most important rules of communication is that if you'll start your message with an insult - for example by calling its recipients cynical, greedy hacks, or fanboys of such - then they'll stop listening to what you have to say at this very moment. And a lot of post-Uprising posts amounted to more or less veiled feces-flinging at CB and other forumites. Having a sound argument without resorting to ad personam is much more likely to get through, than a pile of monkey kaka.

    Not that I'm particularly impressed with Uprising's writing, or the spot it leaves YJ in. I'd love to see some kind of intelligent aftermatch; showing that the faction got its nose bloodied, but also learned its lessons and was able to restore a kind of internal order, geared up for regaining some political ground, and showed that it can play PR games as well.

    First, starting with announcing that the Uprising and its result clearly showed, that the Emperor had lost the Mandate of Heaven. Force a dynasty change, squarely putting the blame on the previous Emperor's person and his subordinates, while protecting the Emperor as a concept. This would allow for a powerful follow up - cleaning the IS house from people that failed to spot and prevent the whole affair in the first place, and then done their best to escalate matters. Beginning with introducing PsychoCrane to the wonderful opportunities that come with a status of Kuang Shi. And doing this publicly, generating good PR on both internal and external fronts.

    Then announcing to the Japanese population remaining on YJ territory, that the new Emperor recognizes the tragic events of Uprising more with sorrow than with anger, and recognizes that the split between him and his Japanese subjects is at the time unmendable. While he can't allow for more territories to secede from the Empire, he also won't hold people who don't want to be his subjects any longer hostage. Every citizen that wishes to leave the Empire and relocate to the new Japanese territories will be allowed to, with government providing legal and logistic support. At the same time drive home the message that the new Japanese society is basically caste-based, with the Kuge and their minions seeing their subjects merely as tools to be used for Kuge's own ends, while cynically using Japanese Emperor as a banner to hide their own self-interest and greed. I'd do everything I could to covertly support independent media - PanO, Nomad, Haqq ones - which are reporting from Japan and are working this angle. People might not trust the Party line, but will be more willing to listen to the media who uncovered YJ practices in the first place. Let them tell the story how the Japanese people were misled and jumped from the frying pan into the fire. This would work a bit toward mending fences with those parts of Japanese society that weren't supporting the Uprising, but were forced in that direction by IS tactics. It'd also be easy to sell this to the outside world, especially combined with the aforementioned cleaning up. After the inevitable exodus both Party and the Emperor should announce that the remaining population had proved their loyalty, and deserved the status of citizens of the Empire. They should end all the pre-Uprising practices that had made Japanese a second-class citizens and end the martial law - leaving discreet surveilance in place, of course. Obviously some agents of foreign powers would stay behind.

    On the external front the Empire should do its best to remind Nomads and Haqq about one of the main lessons of Machiavelli - you don't support the big guy on the block against its weaker rivals. They might've done so in case of JSA vs YJ, but in case of YJ vs PanO? Not so much. Let them fend off the diplomatic and covert actions of the Hyperpower on their own for a while.

    All this should restore at least some amount of the Empire's prestige, ease the internal tensions which would free up resources to deal with other threats, and provide a truckload of PR ammo in the face of 3rd Offensive. "You're so busy trying to give us a black eye, even as we're doing all in our power to make amends and resolve our conflict with Japan peacefully, that you forget about the external threat! Our troops are dying in the jungles and orbitals of Paradiso! We're bleeding while doing our best to protect Human Sphere!"

    I think this would be an interesting direction for YJ to take, and could make for some really good writing. Especially if balanced by showing that YJ is still ruthless, but ruthless in a precise and intelligent way; doing the good thing not for the sake of it, but out of its own cynicysm, because it's pragmatic. Realpolitik.
     
    #320 Stiopa, Dec 6, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018