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Why Nomads are wrong about Aleph

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by Dragonstriker, Aug 6, 2018.

  1. wellspokenman

    wellspokenman Retired Intruder

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    All the Nomad ships provide for multiple kinds of capital to exist outside of Aleph's control. Labor and military power for Corregidor, money and information for Tunguska, and entertainment and research for Bakunin.

    Nemo is an Aleph propagandist, he is always going to paint Nomads in the worst possible light. It frankly amazes me that the mods let him routinely troll our forum. I imagine they view it as a type of roleplay. I appreciate that you guys engage him in good faith, but I don't see that returned. Just stop feeding the troll and let this thread die.
     
  2. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Shame Tunguska, like all Nomad ships, acts in "international waters" and is thus not subjected to any national laws. O-12 not saying anything, however, is kinda... well, bipolar (either O-12 has ALL the cards and weight to dictate human politics, like in the Uprising, or has none, like in all the other situations... XD). It's funny because forbidding Nomad ships to use Circulars (or inflating their costs so they cannot use it at all) would be all that's needed to force them into more sane and human behaviour (for Aleph, in theory, it's just a matter of coding).

    Nope, dirty money storage and laundering is part of its main business. The Crypt (where data is stored securely and OUTSIDE Maya/Aleph) is their MAIN business.

    Blackmail information is less useful if the AI overseer knows it, after all.

    Legicitmacy avoids rebellions, however... and guerrilla wars can be ugly.

    I'm Aleph main... and here I am XD
     
    #102 xagroth, Aug 17, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 23, 2018
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  3. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    This is neither here nor there. I use "crimes against humanity" here only in the sense of the definition we have for them now. Basically, it's an alternative way to say they are ethical monsters.

    Yes, you are correct, but the ultimate purpose of all their operations is maintaining their existing wealth and creating more.
     
    #103 Nemo No Name, Aug 17, 2018
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  4. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Well, "crimes against humanity" is a legal term, used in courts of law, mainly of international reach.
     
    #104 xagroth, Aug 17, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 23, 2018
  5. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    Well, yes. I was using it as such term but from our time, as a shorthand for what I consider the Nomad Nation to be guilty of. I do not claim that in Infinity universe O-12 still has exactly the same law on the books, or a way to enforce it even if it did.
     
    #105 Nemo No Name, Aug 17, 2018
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  6. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Watch the full first season. Then come back here, there are relevant points in common.
     
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  7. sarf

    sarf Well-Known Member

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    Lol, apparently not adopting Highlander Aleph motto "There could be only one AI" is hypocrisy))) Please, continue, this is amusing)))
     
    #107 sarf, Aug 18, 2018
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  8. Cratesbane

    Cratesbane Well-Known Member

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    ALEPH: Let me take those pesky logistics off your hands. I understand that your brains are tiny, squishy things, and not terribly reliable! Let me help filter out all that nasty, mean real life, and let me worry about the Combined Army, the media you consume, and every other menial everyday activity.
    Nomads: We understand that we're entirely untrustworthy and easy to compromise, so we'll let pseudo AI teach these dehumanized individuals how to live, so that they're entirely dependent on obeying them to get their digital rewards.

    I'm not arguing that there should be only one AI. I'm not arguing that ALEPH, even if it's benevolent, is actually good for humanity. I'm arguing that the Nomads are in the process of becoming the very monsters they claim to fight.
     
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  9. wellspokenman

    wellspokenman Retired Intruder

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    The reality and ideologies don't align for any of the factions except perhaps Yu-Jing and only for them because they make no pretense of being "good guys." Nomads are not altruistic and Tunguska is by far the darkest and most nihilistic Nomad faction.
     
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  10. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Aleph is not good for humanity, Aleph acts as defined by her imposed nature (as a created intelligence), her imposed limitations, and her understanding of what is the better course of action inside those limits. That removes all morality from Aleph, frankly.

    Only the Observancy truly fights Aleph, the rest use that as a memetic weapon... you could say they are opportunistic :p
     
    #110 xagroth, Aug 19, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 23, 2018
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  11. Darkvortex87

    Darkvortex87 Combat jump kamikaze

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    i seem to miss this information, where was it?

    I think this is known and socially acceptable, since humans have been doing it for ages with dogs etc.
    Also, exalted races are not forced to fight. They "choose" to fight alongside their creator.

    this is actually not an ethic problem at all. It is illegal for O-12 legislation? Yes. But tohaa are not under O-12 regulations
     
  12. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Campaign Paradiso, "historical" pre-campaign of Tohaa Vs Ariadna's background

    Well, there is a difference between selective breeding (what has been done IRL to dogs, for example) and straight Exaltation (pick a monkey, turn it into a Planet of the Apes monkey). As for their willingness to fight for their creators, remember Tohaa have pheromonic language... it would be trivial to engineer a "pheromonal receptor that bypasses conscious thought" for them... Not saying they do, but it might be there as a cynical, gray-colored part of the Tohaa (to me they are a lot "WH40k Eldar").

    Frankly, the accuracy of the Nomad's perceptions about Aleph is irrelevant. They act as a counter group (at least, Bakunin does) and control group (Corregidor and maybe Tunguska). Mind you, I'd bet Aleph would be very willing to get inside Tunguska's Vauld of Secrets, but the other two ships can be turned from nuisances to useful assets with little to no effort.
     
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  13. Cratesbane

    Cratesbane Well-Known Member

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    The campaign Paradiso book singlemindedly changed my mind about the Triumverate. If you play Tohaa, and you care about fluff, you really should skim it at least. And it's something I kept in mind while reading Uprising too. None of our factions are more than one book away from moustache twirling villainy. I say this before I have a chance to read Operation Coldfront's manual. I'd really appreciate a few more Dire Foes style personal stories over faction based propaganda, black or otherwise.
     
  14. sarf

    sarf Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, you`re still tell stories how early Christians were wrong about Roman motivations))) Of course.
     
  15. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Well, we have to be fair here: Campaign Paradiso presented a "Tohaa Cerberus" faction, and lined the Tohaa as "kinda eldar for Infinity", but it was the second supplement for the game (Human Sphere was around the time aswell, since Aleph was released there), with a cool but atrocious campaign system (cool because it is always fun to develop your army... atrocious because of a) a faction based on Characters that loses them automatically against one enemy while never against everyone else, and b) the better/luckiest players get massive advantages in some cases that further increase the distance between them and the rest of players, specially if they managed to score a 10-X).

    Uprising was released after 12 or more years of the game's first launch, without correction (there were spelling mistakes in the spanish edition...), and with a background so basic and railroaded several steam locomotives from historical periods vanished suddenly. There is a difference there, besides the Tohaa were presented mostly as "doing what they can to survive" (I can respect that, frankly, we would do the same), while Uprising became a Zero Sum game for all but CA and JSA (idiot balls for everybody! For reasons specified at the time on the YJ forum), so not really comparable :(
     
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  16. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    Corregidor provides 0-G engineering and construction literally nothing else matters and they will always exist because of that.

    An ALEPH unit of Engineers as a prototype of replacing the services of Corregidor would be pretty cool.
     
  17. sarf

    sarf Well-Known Member

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    @Nemo No Name And again all of this does nothing to prove Aleph usefulness and superiority. Ok, shady and immoral things are shady and immoral. Is your point that living under overseer`s thumb is better? Is your point that people are immoral if not shepherded by makeshift god?
     
  18. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    Hm? I am an interloper on the original thread idea here, my apologies to OP.

    I think I mentioned this because someone was claiming Nomads was good guy bros, don't ya know man. And it just went out of the airlock after.

    This discussion is completely separate from any kind of discussions/claims of Aleph usefulness or superiority.
     
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  19. jherazob

    jherazob Well-Known Member

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    It greatly deserves it's own separate thread, it's an interesting topic worth discussing, but indeed here is derailing the original one :)
     
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  20. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    Probably, although I am exhausted already by discussion here. XD