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why no Tactica for NCA?

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by andre61, Apr 18, 2018.

  1. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Which remarks? All I can see is you talking yourself into a corner. Trying to distract from thein itial questionic that 30 Fusiliers are a bad list. Proving the existence of bad lists.

    If you feel threatened by your own inablity to come up with a better example than "they're very suboptimal against TO and can't push buttons at all" that is is on you my friend.

    Your first comment alone was pretty baffling.

    You descripe a chance of literally zero to hit something with ODD/TO beyond 16" as "viable" then proceed to call the same thing "decent in defense". I beg you pardon but I somehow failed to take you serious after that.

    By the way if you're not used to sarcasm and it offends you, might wanna consider to steer clear of discussions on the internet.
    I'm sorry you feel as if it is unneccessary to prove your point personally and think it is a waste of time. Would really have loved to have that data, so maybe I'll do it myself, although I'm clearly going to be biased.
    You are right that I do not in fact have put 30 Fusiliers on the table, so I need rhetoric tricks to make that point.
    Same is true when I tell you not to put your hand in boiling water. Don't take my word for granted but by all means get some other opinions before you decide it is a good idea. Without ever trying that myself I'd strongly urge you not to do that. It's quite the suboptimal life choice.

    Questioning everything might hold value from a philosophic standpoint, but questioning the common basics makes further discussion relying on them quite tedious.
    So if you excuse me I'll discard gnore your opinion on the matter for now. Thank you for your input, it was good to see someone disagrees even here. But I'll maintain 30 Fusiliers is prove of concept for the existence of bad ITS lists.
     
    #41 Teslarod, Apr 21, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2018
    Andre82 likes this.
  2. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Teuton knight?

    Gimme wa lisy when hes actually usefull and works with a mission?
     
  3. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Well under N2 there was a famous test of an Avatar facing equal points in Keisotsu and the outcome was always in the balance, a 30 (or 20 something to have specialists and heavy weapons) fusilier list would be problematic to play, but playable, as with all sub-optimal lists it is grounded on the players skill to carry the list through and though they will win games, it is on the player skill and not on the validity of the list.
     
  4. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    I've heard of players doing cool things with Teutons and Joan, coordinated aggressive moves and panzerfaust shots. But I also am not an MO expert... Only played them maybe 10 times ever, which is why I stick to discussing Acon and NCA. But MO's internal balance is certainly much worse than either of my two Sectorials.
     
    oldGregg likes this.
  5. Alkasyn

    Alkasyn Well-Known Member

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    There you go:


    [​IMG] Military Orders
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    [​IMG] FATHER-KNIGHT Lieutenant Spitfire / Breaker Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 50)
    [​IMG] PEACEMAKER Heavy Shotgun + AUXBOT_3 / Electric Pulse. (0 | 21)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] AUXBOT_3 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4)
    [​IMG] ORDER SERGEANT MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 21)
    [​IMG] ORDER SERGEANT Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 15)
    [​IMG] ORDER SERGEANT Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    [​IMG] ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    [​IMG] ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    [​IMG] ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    [​IMG] FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    [​IMG] FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]6 [​IMG]1
    [​IMG] TEUTONIC KNIGHT Combi Rifle, Panzerfaust / Pistol, EXP CCW. (0 | 36)
    [​IMG] TRAUMA-DOC (Father-Doctor) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    [​IMG] PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    [​IMG] TECH-BEE (Remote Assistant Level 1, Specialist Operative) Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] SPEC. SERGEANT (CH: TO Camouflage, Infiltration, Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)
    [​IMG] FUSILIER Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18)
    [​IMG] MULEBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    [​IMG] MULEBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

    5.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army


    The Teuton's a counter piece sitting in your Deployment, maybe going into supression later. You keep him back to attack someone who gets to close and threatens your link or other pieces. Nothing extraordinary, but he's fine.
     
  6. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    Pretty much every game I have ever seen start up has said some form of "play what you like because its skill that wins" meme.
    This is always hard to argue with because to a point it is true.
    There is even a saying used in games like Streetfighter about playing someone who fits your hand.
    However in pretty much EVERY competitive game ever a tier list starts to form as more competitive players start exploring a game. I personally love this discovery part of competitive games but I still get shocked at the pushback it gets.
    People often confuse not knowing what the best option is as if that means there is not a best option. Some people are even a little invested/hopeful of it staying nebulas... I mean that is why netdecking has always been so hated.

    Yes but if the guy who won Interplanetario and the other top winners don't talk then taking what you can get is still probably going to be better then nothing for most people.
    VaulSC could never play competitively and only give bad or even harmful advice but the fact he is discussing and giving his arguments for his opinions makes him a priceless resource for infinity.
    I do admit I put more stock in barakiels batreps then VaulSC's as I suspect (rather blindly) that you are a more proven player but I definitely think it is a mistake to ignore him.

    Also the simple fact that you can have bad lists and less bad lists means you can have good and even better lists... we just might not have any idea what a better list looks like.
     
  7. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    One Mission isn't even the problem. Three to five in a tournament setting is where it gets problematic.
    When a mission includes a Saturation Zone to make B1 Panzerfausts and CC better in FTF rolls against BS Attacks the Teuton receives a neat little buff. The problem remains that a neat little buff in one mission might be a drawback in the other ones.
    So for the most part it's a choice in between either sacrificing a list slot to bring Teutons for Mission X or taking a performance hit in mission Y and Z.
    I can see Joan V2 Lt for Rescue (6-2 Multiterrain) to ignore difficult terrain, as well as a couple Teutons to benefit from her Inspiring Leadership working reasonably well. Although I have to add this would not be something I'd personally build a strategy around - my preference would be "mini Achilles" non Lt Joan V2 EXP CCW so I don't put my Lt at risk turn 1.

    While we're on the topic, Rescue is another mission where NCA is at a massive disadvantage. 90% of our damage output is reduced (aside from DTWs), there isn't a fast troop with Multiterrain or spammable Infiltration to pass a roll into the 4" strip on the far side of the table. Having to pass a WIP roll to sync each Civvie also doesn't help.
    The only reasonably efficient choice to drag a Civvie back into your DZ is Garuda walking in after you clear the far side 4" strip from AROs. The thought of banking on a Locust for his Multiterrain and accepting he'll only be B1 or B2 gives me nightmares.
     
  8. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    No question, I'm happier seeing players create content. Conversation and dialog is key.

    My only hangup is when those content articles start scaring people away from either innovating, or starting a force to begin with.

    I think we can all agree there's value in identifying what's strong, and what isn't. What works and what doesn't. I honestly just have a hard time dealing in absolutes when it comes to Infinity, because the variables are huge. What's the prevailing meta like? What's the mission being played? What's the entire mission lineup? What's your 2nd list look like?

    Example with NCA: AHDs are hard to use, they're vulnerable to KHDs, I wouldn't suggest AHDs for a top tier list. However, I routinely use the Swiss AHD, because I'm comfortable mitigating the vulnerability of the KHD by using Hidden Deployment, Marker State, supporting Hexa KHD, etc. to protect myself. For players who know what enemy platforms have KHDs, they can play around them with a Swiss AHD and yield strong gains.

    So the Swiss AHD is a subpar choice in the hands of some players, lethal choice in the hands of others. It's bottom-tier for some, far too vulnerable relative to cost. It's an incredibly valuable game winner for others.

    So I don't know that a unit like that could ever figure into a "netdeck", or be rationalized as a top tier choice without listing the half-dozen prerequites attached to using it effectively. And that's why I tend to explore a unit's full range of options, rather than ranking it good/bad and moving on.
     
    #48 barakiel, Apr 22, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2018
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  9. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    That is fair. However from my experience, rogue decks/ Jank always make a showing.

    And that is what makes people like Vaul and yourself valuable. Good players look to better players to help cut past that noise. We can put a man on the moon but not if we have to keep reinventing the wheel.

    That looks like a pretty good guide to the Swiss AHD's to me.
    You tell us the problems and risks that amount to more then "Its an expensive unit" you inform us that you don't think they are a top tier unit, We then get some more juicy bits of information about why you still routinely use them.

    This is true in most games. I got a guy who plays X-wing here who is so good that he was banned from playing any meta lists at our last local tournament. Despite this man being very good at X-wing he can not fly aces (fragile ships that evade/outmaneuver as they wait for a perfect shot) to save his life.

    Even Magic the Gathering is slow to use good/bad for its cards. There are some cards that are strictly better then other cards
    but they do try and avoid it for the most part. Even the pros are constantly looking at the other pro's trying to understand why they make the choices they make when list building and the plebs then spend weeks reverse engineering those decks trying to understand those same choices.

    From my point of view the thing about Infinity that makes it so hard to have netdecks over a game like X-wing is not the ARO mechanic, the missions, the two lists, not even the random terrain, however all of that is definitely a contributor.
    Its the fact that Infinity is so... new(?) that it has not matured to something like this yet.
    http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/tourneys
     
  10. Vaulsc

    Vaulsc Well-Known Member

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    Just logged in after coming back from a 2-day ITS tournament weekend from out of town to find this thread, and I have to say! The record for most number of times my name has been dropped in a forum thread has been broken. Let's see how controversial it can get. On a scale of 1 through to "play by intent" I rate it about a 3 on the rage-o-meter :o
     
  11. RogueJello

    RogueJello Well-Known Member

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    Not sure I see your point. Warmachine, Infinity, and 40K have been around for a much longer time than X-Wing, none of them have this level of reporting on lists used. It's often spotty at best, and entirely dependent upon the whims of the people involved in the ITS.

    What would be interesting would be to see the information from Warmachine's Warroom, or Infinity's Army6 opened up to the general public so that we could get some stats on models used at tournaments, and also could be used to allow people to see the winning lists from various tournaments. It seems like it should be easy with Infinity, since the ITS announcer allows you to submit your lists to the tournament. It's currently optional, but making it mandatory for big tourney is probably just the flip of a switch.
     
  12. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    But then who Rescue the civilians ?:P Your all forward guys became Impetues and unless you can come back with Civlian in 1 turn, you will lose synchronization.
    No it isn't. REMs cannot synchronize civilians ;D
     
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  13. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Yes, I agree :) Good thing in Infinity is that even "bad" choices can sometimes work, it's just that you probably won't win too often, or have any real chances in "competetive" enviroment (but for "friendly" games they might work) ;)
     
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