That's exactly what we're complaining about. Hacking isn't enough of a part of the game. I hate leaning on Ghost in the Shell for examples, but it's probably what everyone has seen and/or read. How many times did the Major mess with someone's information? At least once an episode in the TV series? Or hacking someone's eyes? etc
I'm honestly not sure what to make of Wulvers, they seem to be a thing unto themselves. While it's true they have 2W, they have really below average BS, and all their skills are CC focus. So they're HI in the same sense that Magister knights are HI. If all it takes is 2W, then all TAGs are HI, and so is Tarik. Honestly, Tarik is probably more HI than either Wulvers or Magisters.
I'd argue it's Cameronians which map onto Magisters, while the Wulvers are more like other Knights (solid CC but also good guns and BS based combat). But even arguing that Wulvers are like Magisters really only highlights my point, because Magisters have a whole package of vulnerabilities which the Wulvers don't... for no cost discount?
I've always considered Wulvers functionally equivalent to Magisters, Teutons, Domaru, and Haramaki/Tanko. But when you're comparing: Ariadna ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 3 WULVER Mk12, Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 37) WULVER T2 Rifle, Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 33) WULVER Heavy Shotgun, Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 32) 0 SWC | 102 Points Open in Infinity Army To Japanese Secessionist Army ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 4 2 DOMARU Boarding Shotgun, E/M Grenades / Pistol, E/M CCW, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 34) DOMARU Combi Rifle, E/M Grenades / Pistol, E/M CCW, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 35) TANKŌ Flammenspeer, Contender / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 23) TANKŌ Blitzen, Submachine Gun / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 23) 0 SWC | 115 Points Open in Infinity Army or Military Orders ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 4 2 MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 22) MAGISTER KNIGHT Missile Launcher / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 32) TEUTONIC KNIGHT Combi Rifle, Panzerfaust / Pistol, EXP CCW. (0 | 36) TEUTONIC KNIGHT Spitfire / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 37) 4 SWC | 127 Points Open in Infinity Army well, Where is the discount for being Hackable? I see the discount for Frenzy/Impetuous, not Hackable.
Not really, that BS12 (which is very rare on HI, who are usually BS13/14) and lack of a B4 heavy weapon really limits the profile. Most HI have access to at least one B4 weapon, either a Spitfire, or a HMG. Um, what? Magisters are 11 points cheaper. Not all of that is being Highly Impetus, and the Wulvers have Frenzy, so they're some what discounted as well. Ditto the Teutonic, who's about to see a points drop. I see similar differences between Domaru who have better CC, +3 BTS, E/M Grenades for +1/2 points. Tanko are harder to compare because the weapon loadouts are pretty different.
Sure, but that does also make them SWC light, despite the annoying 1SWC cost on the Haris. Dude, seriously, weapon loadout. Light Shotguns and Panzerfausts are crazy cheap, while Mk 12's, T2 Rifles and Heavy Shotguns are not. Then look at the Special Skills, Wulvers are a solid CQB HI.
In a faction and sectorial that seldom uses all it's SWC. I've yet to make a Caledonia list that is constrained by SWC. 11 points worth, when they both have a discount? Sorry, no sale. :) Wulvers are a solid CQB unit, but they're not a typical HI, and I'm not seeing a similarity in costs.
YES, easily. Extreme Impetuous is a far bigger discount than Frenzy, and a Light Shotgun + Panzerfaust costs the same as a Rifle. Wulvers prove the point that Ariadna gets the bonus of Hacking immunity for free.
Got some numbers to back that up? And if you do, please explain why they're pretty much ignored, from what I can tell reading these forums.
I mean, feign ignorance if you want. But the costs on everything a Wulver has are known, so it is obvious that you are. And, I have no idea why they don't get more attention. Our local Caledonian player often brings them. But my best guess is that they are a fairly average HI in a faction full of the best value for points units in the game.
Didn't I just show that? Heavy shotgun costs the same as a Combirifle (check the Karakuri), and a Mk12 is +5pts over a combi. Domaru combi is 35pts, Wulver Heavy shottie is 32. Domaru has +2CC, BTS3, Kinematica 2, and Dual Wield over a Wulver (I'm assuming NBW is the same cost as MA3). Are you seriously telling me that all that is only 3 points?
More possessions (anyone with cube), maybe of limited effect (so the game doesn't become "take control of everyone and jump from high place")? Seasick program, if hit, drop Prone. More isolation (even if no cube)? And in non cooperative mode? YoMama program, targeted radio emission makes target Extreme Impetuous (angry/ashamed). Some kind of distraction? Chinese Whispers program, force something like Change Facing where attacker picks. Just to mention three random ideas. It would be interesting. Some kind of "everyone not with hackable trait has hackable-minus trait" and a set of progamms for that. But would probably need a full point tweak, right? Now plain MI/LI/... would "play" and that has to be taken into account.
I can read at times, thank you. My point is that we are discussing actual rules of a competitive game, not fluff.
Do I have to repeat myself a third time? The actual rules of the actual competitive game give actual advantages to armies which totally ignore hacking, without any disadvantage to doing so.
Those are actually interesting ideas and I'd gladly see a couple of programs like that instead of just IMM the target with 3 dice or IMM the target with 2 dice but with +3. The rest of this thread - no comment.
Example: Wulvers versus say, Domaru. Domaru is 3pts more (Heavy shottie is the same cost as combi), and has +2CC, BTS3, Kinematica 2, and Dual Wield over a Wulver (I'm assuming NBW is the same cost as MA3, they're roughly equally powerful). Yet you cannot hack a Wulver. Again, the Domaru is more vulnerable and more expensive. What. The. Fuck.
And two points of EM CCW (Shock and AP CCWs cost the same as each other). Which leaves the Domaru paying 1pt for the rest, so there's some form of discount on the Domaru compared to the Wulver, it's just not very big.
All of You sounds like Domarus and Wulvers are some units seen on table. Domaru were and always will be just Tanko link filler (previous Haramaki). One of the breasosns I believe this link was nerved is that it needs 2 domarus now;P Why would You want take even 1 lol? xD Wulvers see table only in LI Caledonia. Both units are to expensive/badly written, hacking discount or not.
I think you're underestimating the usefulness of Assault and E/M Grenades in those fireteams. Tanko Missile Launcher is the link's power-house but Tanko are otherwise a bit limited. Granted, the Tanko platform is better streamlined to the game's rule set but having 2-3 Domaru isn't bad. The only real drawback is that the Domaru FO is expensive due to the Combi Rifle, IMO, but having FO with combi is still a lot better than not having FO at all as was the case pre-Uprising. I think solo HI-quality troops in general suffer from similar problems. You either have special weapons (like HMG) and/or special abilities (like TO Camo) that makes you worth taking or you don't get taken as solo model. Doesn't matter if it's a Domaru, Zuyong, or an Orc. P.s. and then there's the issue of how punishing stat-scaling is in this game.
3 arm hi with 12 bs for those points isn't good. Yeah, CC skills are nice but there is no delivery system to CC. Meh. Tanko without ml got blitzens, contenders, everything You want for defensive link. At bs13... And lower price. Even after nerf they are viable. And jsa is arny with lots of CC units with delivery system..
