This, of course, references two almost unrelated mechanics that affect aspects of the game with minimal interaction between each other.
"improving Supportware would help show that there are reasons for Quantronic integration, rather than making it purely a disadvantage."
I disagree with the assertion that Quantronic Integration is purely a disadvantage. I believe the advantages are built into the profiles available. Arianda, with their older tech does not have an HI with a true 2W profile. They do have a number of pseudo 2W profiles, including V:NWI, V:Dogged, and the Lo-Tech Blackjack, but no true 2W HI. The same can be said about their REMs, the Tractor MUL is a worse profile in just about every way compared to the standard 4 REM profiles for PanO, Haqq, or Nomads. This is before we start talking about the high tech wonders like the PanO Bulleteer, or Auxbots, Yu Jing Su Jian, Nomad Sputnik, or the ubiquitous 3 pt G:Servant bots. It's true that once those profiles are on the table they've got drawbacks, but during list creation there are definitely advantages.
I think ‚Quantronic Integration‘ refers to infowar (hacking), which is something you didn‘t mention at all. Or is this what you wanted to adress by pointing out the difference between list building and actual gameplay? The point is, that the disadvantages of being hackable is not outweighted by the possibilities of active hacking (especially supportware), and that the impact of infowar seems too small considering the omnipresence of maya (or arachne) and the fluff presented. Even if Ariadna is ‚low-tech‘, their communication should be even easier to hack than e.g. PanO‘s. But it seems to be the other way round: being low-tech provides immunity instead of vulnerability.
Correct. The tradeoff is better profiles, more tech with Quantronic Integration, vs worse profiles without. Just looking at their table top performance is somewhat misleading. It's true that those profiles have additional downsides, but they're also much better overall. FWIW, I play both PanO and Ariadna. As a general observation, it appears you're making a fluff justification, which is often problematic. Given the choice between excellent rules, with fluff which is a little off, or mediocre rules which make perfect sense fluff wise, I'll take the better rules. However, I'll just make the counter fluff argument that the very lack of tech is often an advantage when dealing with hackers. One of the best present day hacking defenses is an "air gap", where you don't connect the servers to the internet or other outside networks. Next up is a lack of any functionality to hack into. In this case there may be performance enhancements that add the +1 W to most HI that also results in hackers being able to also hack into the medical tech and administer sedatives or muscle relaxants. There also might be differences in the pseudo muscles built into hackable HI, that are not present in the servo-muscles of Ariadna HI. Currently the Arianda HI are all PH12-13, with the exception of the BlackJack and RatNick, while the "basic" Orc HI, and most other modern HI are PH14, while Joan hits PH15. So I really feel that the differences in the tech is baked into the profiles and list in the same way that a "basic" Orc doesn't have any "special" rules, other than a super human profile.
No, my point is 'the rules are weak and don't even meet the fluff'. And I totally second your opinion about HI! But again - this is about hacking, especially supportive hacking.
lol, ask my karakuri or hollow men about that! But Ariadna's unhackable PH16 2W support troops said they won't join in.
Ok, and there are a few PH13 HI in PanO as well, but those are the assault HI, who used to be Mov 4-4 in N2, and as such should be considered to be in "light" HI armor. Is this the case for the Suryat regiment? Or maybe Morats aren't human? Anyway, pointing out exceptions doesn't really change the main argument. I don't think there's anything wrong with the rules. Profiles are part of the rule system, as are the stat line benefits that come with being an HI unit. Surely it hasn't missed your attention that HI tend to be the most brutal units in the game, so having a unit type that counters them in an indirect manner is good for balance. Supportive hacking goes back to my point about poor REM options in Ariadna. Ariadna could apply the Assisted Fire from their one hacker profile to the Tractor MULs, but they pay +0.5 SWC over other factions for the hacker (who has a subpar stat line), and the Tractor MUL is not a great platform for that to work from, just based on it's profile. It's probably the worst offensive REM in the game to be frank. So their hacking support is also pretty poor, as it should be. All that having been said, I think there's an argument for further strengthening of hacking, but it's a pretty good improvement over N2, and the improvements wouldn't need to be that big to further even it out.
The issue though is that most "basic" 2W HI with default loadouts are frequently considered not worth their points. I'm talking about things like Orcs, Mobile Brigada, Jannisaries, Shang Ji, or, yes, Suryats. 2W and higher stats is great, but generally people like to take the models that have extra skills, either ones that make things cheaper (frenzy) or that give a disproportionate boost to the output (camo, full auto, MSV, ...). And while that might be true in general (specialized/optimized troops are popular), plain or stripped down units are still liked in a lot of other slots. Put another way: A Mobile Brigada with a Combi Rifle (34 points) costs more than 3 Alguacils with combis (10 points each). But you're going to be working hard to find cases where it performs 3 times as well as the Alguacil does.
I've heard that comment made a number of times, but the truth is not decided by popularity. :) I'll agree the frenzy discount is pretty nice, and possibly HI are still a bit too expensive. However, I don't think that necessarily comes into this discussion, since that's a somewhat separate balance discussion. I also don't entirely agree that HI are that far out of line. Doing what? Providing orders? The Alguacil are clearly better. Going rambo, and shooting model after model? I'll take the Mobile Brigada. I understand that the difference on any single order is not that large, say 20-30%, but over an entire order pool, the difference becomes much starker, particularly when the odd die roll goes the wrong way. Most of the analysis I've seen done focuses on the difference of a single order, since things get very complex very quickly after that. I honestly wouldn't even know how to quantity such math. Maybe the odds of a Mobile Brigada shooting down 10 Alguacil and surviving vs the same Alguacil shooting down 10 Alguacil? Finally the problem with any points discussion bogs down in questions of utility. If you never lose a die roll is the ARM5 of the Swiss Guard really as useful as the ARM5 of a Mormaer who is much more likely to be using that stat? If the Swiss never dodges, does the PH matter? And that's before you get into questions of is TO Camo useful, which vary depending on what they're going up against. For models with MSV2 it's clearly overcosted, because it provides no benefit, while against models without visors it might be a bit too cheap. Further TO Camo is far more effective against any model that can be completely prevented from taking a die roll vs models that are getting a roll, even if it's a 1. But you can only provide one points cost for such a thing. It's one of the reasons why I think the WarCor and the Cutter are not particularly well balanced, since they're at two extremes of the system. Sometimes that 3 pt WarCor is going to pull way above his height, and at others the Cutter is going to find himself not pulling his weight. It's things like that that make me wonder why the cost of the Uhlan is 99, instead of just rounding up to 100 points. Do we really think a points based system is going to be precise enough at that level to provide 1/300th of precision in determining the utility of a Uhlan in every game? Questions like these are the reason why Warmachine went from a points system with a similar level of precision to Infinity's to a much grosser system.
@RogueJello I'm not one of those players who's just allergric to HI and only wants to field masses of cheap single wound models. But I do think that a lot of the "basic" HI are still a bit overpriced. I generally agree with your post there; I just felt it was worth pointing out that "true 2W HI" is not a universally useful thing to have in an army, and potentially an example of where something that is nominally higher tech doesn't necessarily translate into an in-game advantage.
Fair enough, but a bit more on topic: those basic HI with 2W are better than the Ariadna equivalents. Now as a general rule you're also going to pay for that in points, and they are vulnerible to hacking, but there is a justifable reason for using the Quantronic Integration, if it's the reason why they are a better unit. We're getting off into the weeds a bit, but an interesting comparison is the 3rd Highlander Grey Rifle vs Combi Rifle Hospitaller. The Hospitaler is 4 pts more expensive, but has the following advantages: CC, BS, PH, WIP, ARM, BTS, and W2. It's also carrying a AP CCW, and has Religious and MA L2. The Grey is Non-hackable, and has two shotguns. I'll take the Hospitaller any day. Maybe the AP Rifle Vet Kazak vs Hospitaler would be a better comparison? Hospitaller still has better CC, BS, PH, BTS, and W2. Now V:NWI + Shock Immune is pretty darned close to W2, but it's still not W2. The Vet has Mimetism, and Vet L2. Harder to decide which is the better profile, but arguable the Vet Kazak is one the best profile in game. And there's nothing in Ariadna that really compares to a 23 pt Magister Knight. Maybe Cameronians? Even then I think the Magister has a slight edge.
I'm sorry if my tongue-in-cheek comment came off as trying to undermine your argument. It was mostly because Morat players have been scratching their heads at the 13 PH for years now and being reminded of it just rubs salt into the wound.
For me it's less the fact that it's 13 per se, and more that it's only +1 over the corresponding basic LI.
From what I can tell from my old N2 docs, Suryats were an "Assault" HI, like the PanO Guardia de Assaulto, with a matching MOV 4-4, ARM3. So that would appear to be the answer to your question. N2 Profile in question:
As the picture suggests this is actually a revised profile that came along with Campaign: Paradiso (the HRL and VSG are a dead giveaway). The change was due to the Suryats trading their armour for a model that was lighter and better suited to fighting in the jungles of Paradiso, the profiles became a decent amount cheaper at the loss of some ARM and PH.
