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Why isn't ramboing Muttawi'ah is the best thing in the game?

Discussion in 'Haqqislam' started by Zsolt, Jul 16, 2018.

  1. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    As in title. I'm not playing Haqq, so can't try this out, but you guys have AVA4 dirt cheap jammers with smoke attached. It hits on WIP15, which is really consistent, you can support it with order spamming easily. Usually there are lot less MSV2 troops than smoke wielding irregulars, and AROing MSV2 troops are not that hard to deal with. So the idea is to have 4 of those, some of them survive opponents turn/impetuous orders, you walk up with the jammers, and Isolate as many troops as possible. Isolate is bad for everything, it makes cheerleaders useless, it messes up the useful pieces as well, the opponent needs engineers in good places and orders to fix it, so it seems like a good trade (asymmetric warfare anyone?). You can spend a whole turn with Isolating your opponent, and solve mission later, as it won't put your opponent in retreat, but cripples him nearly as much as unconscious state. Especially if he spends his next turn trying to repair isolation. So why doesn't this work?
     
  2. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    The same reason why any other single dice roll attack attack isn’t a reliable method of winning FtF rolls on, nor is it order efficient.
     
  3. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    If you lose a regular B1 FtF, your troop usually dies. If you lose a Jammer FtF, nothing happens. Both Jammer and Reset are B1, WIP 15 is high, so you have a nice chance to win. If it's not that order effective, go after the heavy hitters, if the math is good, you can also go after cheerleaders.
     
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  4. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    How it is not, when it is ?

     
  5. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Yes, in magic terrain land.

    You're assuming you can waltz up the table from your deployment zone with no ARO's on the way. If you aren't then you should also know about how order intensive it is to move and toss smoke all the way up the table, as well as the fact that Mutts usually never are in a primary combat group that have so many orders to sustain them.

    Finally, the math isn't even good either. "Heavy hitters" will almost always mean targets with BTS 3-6:

    VS BTS 3 targets with mediocre WIP13 Reset:
    Active Player
    28.25% Custom Unit Immobilizes Mobile Brigada for 2 Turns

    Failures
    35.50% Neither player succeeds
    Reactive Player
    36.25% Mobile Brigada Resets vs. Custom Unit

    VS BTS 6 targets with mediocre WIP13 Reset:
    Active Player
    21.20% Custom Unit Immobilizes Kriza Boracs, Special Crisis Unit for 2 Turns

    Failures
    42.55% Neither player succeeds
    Reactive Player
    36.25% Kriza Boracs, Special Crisis Unit Resets vs. Custom Unit

    VS BTS 9 targets with mediocre WIP13 Reset:
    Active Player
    14.15% Custom Unit Immobilizes Szalamandra Squadron for 2 Turns

    Failures
    49.60% Neither player succeeds
    Reactive Player
    36.25% Szalamandra Squadron Resets vs. Custom Unit

    So to summarize; a Mutt Rambo would need at least 6+ orders (including his own and impetuous) to walk up the table and would need another 4+ orders to isolate a juicy target which would then be within range of an Engineer. Basically this is the longer version of my first statement, "single dice roll attack attack isn’t a reliable method of winning FtF rolls on, nor is it order efficient" which answers the question to your OP. Mutts are broken for a whole other reason, they all run up mid field and create a massive and disgusting area denial zone, while providing smoke for the MSV2, that's their role and they are too good at it. A Rambo role? No.
     
  6. emperorsaistone

    emperorsaistone Well-Known Member

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    Why should I spend Orders on Mutts to isolate you, when I can use yours to do the same?

    There are situations, where it is good to spend orders on Mutts. Mostly Intuitive Attack on Markers and E-Marat on bunched up troops and TAGs.
    But running up first turn to the opponents DZ to jam them is mostly a waste of orders.
     
  7. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    In my last game I spent 4 Orders trying to hack a HI into Immobilized. I used a competent hacker (Valerya Gromoz) to have that done.
    Yes, I was playing Corregidor.

    If I had to do the same with a Ghazi... I wouldn't be able to secure that passage in time to send my Camo Marker through it.
    Jammer is a very effective deterrent / area denial weapon. But it does not win you games - it merely frustrates the opponent.
     
  8. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
    Warcor

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    @Zewrath
    Great post, well explained.

    The 1 dice, single hit mechanic of Jammers is the thing that balances them. Yes, they're good. Yes, they're powerful.

    But when you do the math on single-hit weapons such as Jammers and Chain Rifles, you find the likelihood of actually landing their effect is quite unlikely, compared to any "favorable" gunfighting exchange that involves an attacker with decent BS shooting a target in a +3 or +6 rangeband.

    I spectated an HB vs Steel Phalanx game recently What happened? Achilles planted in the midfield and shrugged off 9 Orders spent jamming him. Despite Achilles being one of the juiciest Jammer targets in the game, High WIP and high BTS are actually very hard to get past.
     
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  9. Balewolf

    Balewolf It's all opinion

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    As everyone has said, you don't spend the orders on them to try and attack in the active turn. You put them in areas to make it difficult to do things for your opponent and for them to waste orders, rather than you wasting orders or spending them to sacrifice them. Sure, if an opportunity comes up to try to jam someone out of suppression, or template a link, you take it, but in most cases it's not effective to have them doing things on your active turn.

    In truth, Ghazi just aren't as effective in the game as they may look on paper. They depend on high density terrain and the opponent having poor ARO. It's the armchair generals and players who don't want to change any aspect of their play who have perpetuated the thought that Ghazi can win games by themselves. This is coming from someone who plays with and against Ghazi. Throw in a flanker or AD or have MSV2 aro/TR bots and they roll over without a fight.
     
  10. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    CC is much more useful for the active turn ramboing with WB. Isolating a guy even leaves a guy active so you still need to get around them.
     
  11. Jonno

    Jonno Well-Known Member

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    Good discussion all round. Spec firing grenades from a Squalo for 10 orders is a similar tactic: it can be great, but it's unreliable so it can be a waste of a turn. I imagine most good players like to go with consistent tactics, and rely on their strategy to win them games. Sometimes a Squalo will kill 7 models in the turn, sometimes none. Jammer Ghazis would be similar.

    Unreliable tactics may win you one game, or even a few in a row, but you won't perform consistently enough to win lots of games.

    The threat of such a rambo, however, is very important. By placing Ghazis strategically you can get your opponent to worry that you just might spend your turn running up the table to isolate his lieutenant, and so will redirect their defense's accordingly. That is perhaps a more powerful use of Jammer than the Jammer itself.
     
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  12. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    That's exactly the situation in which I'd risk a Ghazi to get Achilles under an E/Marat template. If you score a hit, there's 50% chance (Damage 13 EM vs BTS 6) he'll end up toast. If the Ghazi persihes doing that, well, I'm sad to say but it is an acceptable cost.
     
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  13. senso

    senso Member

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    They are not a good Rambo unit because they are not good at rambo'ing. I find that they are more useful for launching intuitive attacks against camo markers than running up the field. They might not isolate much, but forcing your opponent to reveal their markers is worth the 5pts.
     
  14. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    That's a good point - Ghazi are known to be dangerous if they make it to the right position, so there is a good reason to spend one's Camo / Hidden Deployment on getting rid of a Ghazi.

    Of course, if you can achieve that without losing the Ghazi - or you have maneuvered the Ghazi so he wasn't shot at - the Ghazi is a real, legitimate threat to enemy models. Especially HI / TAGs. I mean, a TAG fried up by a 5pts Irregular? Worth a lot. Especially if you've managed to kill the enemy Engineer - that's worth more thna killing the TAG in my eyes!
     
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  15. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Yup, and if he dodges you just Jammer.
     
  16. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    Anything fried up by a 5pts Irregular worth a lot. That's my main problem. Something that can hurt TAGs should be lot more expensive.
     
    #16 Zsolt, Jul 22, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2018
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  17. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    Why?

    To use a RL analogy - yes, a tank is an expensive and effective weapon system.
    Yet it can be destroyed with a relatively inexpensive rocket launcher. Back in the day - with a hand-thrown charge (AT grneade). Or even a Molotov cocktail, all of them cheap as dirt comapred to a tank's price.

    Yes, there are limitaitons - just like with Ghazi's E/Marat - this one is "short ranged".

    Also, keep in mind that in Infinity, your basic rifle can hurt a TAG. I've seen it done, I've done it myself.
    Sure, it is usually a desperation move (though with AP rifles, it ain't half bad), but still - I've seen TAGs getting damaged, and even TAGs going down to infantry's rifles.
     
  18. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    Let's nip this concept right at the bud.

    5 points is too cheap ? How about 7/.5? Is that too cheap? Is 17 enough? Are we ok with 23? Why does the TAG (or whatever) get to determine the minimum value to successfully hurt it? Why is the narrative being driven by the one side, and not my side that Joan has a 60% chance of passing the BTS roll alone?

    Like a fiday, the threat is bigger than the actual execution.
     
    #18 Papa Bey, Jul 22, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2018
  19. Danger Rose

    Danger Rose Sand Cats Tactical Security LLC

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    In my very first game of the Kugage Crisis Campaign I used a Mutt for the first time. The poor woman failed AROing a Bandido while he destroyed one of my consoles.

    In the end, she managed to isolate him, but not before his DA CCW blew the console to bits. And they were at the fringe of MY Deployment Zone.

    I know it's anecdotal, but for me it was a shock that such a feared weapon on THE OP Unit of Haqqislam did squat for me. I even remember captioning the pic when the Bandido blew up the console as "OP my foot!"
     
  20. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    You can roll 20 on your Swiss guard shooting. Yeah, that's anecdotal, doesn't really mean anything. Blowing up consoles with DA on PH13 is also pretty low chance.