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Why is CC different from every other part of the game?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by theomc, Apr 8, 2021.

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Does CC working different than Ranged, Dodge, Doctoring rolls enhance the game?

  1. Yes

    39 vote(s)
    73.6%
  2. No

    5 vote(s)
    9.4%
  3. Meh

    9 vote(s)
    17.0%
  1. theomc

    theomc Well-Known Member

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    Don't know if this is something that others have brought up, but I've always wondered why CC doesn't just work like Ranged (or armor saves, or WIP rolls, or any other aspect of the game), and was really disappointed they didn't revamp it in N4.

    What I mean is:
    - If you're a good shooter you have a decent BS (13-15, usually), have good damage (15), decent B (2+, say) and a good ammo type (AP/DA/Exp)
    - If you're a good hacker you have a decent WIP (13-15, usually), have good damage/effect (save 15 vs. BTS), decent B (2+, say) and a good "ammo" type (1/2 BTS/DA...)
    - If you're a good doctor you have a decent WIP (13-15, usually)...
    - If you're a good dodger you have a decent PH (13-15, usually)...
    ...

    But to be good at CC you have to have this crazy 24+ skill and four levels of martial arts, which means you crit on a 13 or higher, which I guess is meant to make up for the fact that you only ever roll one die... and basically almost every aspect of the rules are different for CC vs. most other actions.

    Why couldn't a good CC'er just have a CC of 13-15, good damage (15) and B2+ with a good ammo type? With a decent implementation you could get rid of the Martial Arts table altogether...
     
  2. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    The idea is actually because it's so much harder to actually get into CC as opposed to say, shitblasting someone from 30 inches away with an AP HMG, that when a CC oriented model like a Domaru reaches CC they should utterly murder the target.

    Hence they get to crit like on 13+ or something stupid. They put alot of effort to get there, now they're there the person should just be considerate and please die.
     
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  3. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Keeping CC single burst with high numbers has three effects that stand out to me:

    It keeps it equally effective on Active and Reactive turns, making a high CC good at offense and defense.

    It makes the few burst Mods CC can get more effective, there's a huge reward for getting multiple Troopers into CC thanks to the added burst.

    The way attributes over 20 work usually makes CC more effective when faced with a choice of shooting or closing to melee. Achilles or Nourkias are better off getting stuck in physically than sitting back and shooting, which makes CC more worth the effort and risk of closing.
     
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  4. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    It's all because of low burst.​
     
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  5. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Even if CC gained burst by default . The base values should still hover around 20.

    Back in n2 part of the problem was even excellent troopers for cc had low value compared to today.

    So you had situations were cc happened and everyone just flubbed , with the effort it takes to get into cc it should feel rewarding . (Mind you I'll still roll a 4 even with +5 to my roll and my opponent will roll a 10 and beat my Uber cc trooper with a knife but that's on me)
     
  6. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    CC doesn't have to be low burst if you have a Fireteam, Peripherals, or Co-ordinated Order :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

    A good reason to keep the base values low though, so you don't end up with burst 8 or 10 attacks.
     
  7. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    This is an important point. CC is decisive if a CC specialist is involved. One or other of the combatants will be getting hit.
     
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  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I don't actually find this to enhance the game, no.

    While it is a system that works, I think it's a system that has the consequence to discourage tactical (edit: **melee**) game play and oddly enough cements the game as a primarily shooting-oriented game because of how it's almost impossible to leverage enough advantage if your raw stats don't give you a natural advantage.

    The best thing I can say about it is that it makes it easy to determine if it is a good idea to try to engage someone. It's almost always a clear advantage to either side and for most units it's quite clear whether it's a waste of time to bother with it or not.

    I would've preferred it if there were more situations where a unit with modest abilities could leverage an advantage by choosing to melee, but odds are they won't have the required special skills to make the attack effective and so for the majority of troops in game their melee ability serves little purpose other than arbitrary points adjustments.
     
    #8 Mahtamori, Apr 9, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2021
  9. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    It serves two purposes makes CC with a specialist a definite outcome somethin needed because a CC specialist is a big investment to get into CC and makes the lowest outcome a CC specialist can make higher, eliminating some of the gap a non specialist can win the fight.

    For example a Hospitaler C21 MA2 fighting a Morat Vanguard CC15 ends up in a CC24 vs CC 12 duel, the minimum the Hospitaler can roll is one giving him a minimum roll of 5 giving the Vanguard a roll of only 5-12 to be able to win a minimum roll Hospitaler.

    Secondary increasing the chances of CC specialists for critical makes them more survivable in CC.

    Infinity is a primarily shooting game and CC specialists are a niche, the CC mechanism makes it worthwhile to commit to the effort if a player is ready to expend the recourses needed if a window of opportunity shows itself for a CC attack.
     
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  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The changes to melee in N4 also alters how the gap in melee ability is a vast chasm.

    Most melee specialists were granted extra abilities to crank up their effective damage potential to compensate for the loss of crits automatically wounding (mainly through getting higher MA levels and better CCWs), but for a bunch of units saw their moderate CC ability devalued further when a plain PH value they have can no longer be counted on to wound even lighter enemies. Even a few odd CC specialists *coughninjas* remain quite low in damage.
     
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  11. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    This only further devalues all the CC quasi specialists, all of the CC17 units that never get used in CC even vs mooks but still pay the CC tax.

    What is the point of those?
     
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  12. Kreslack

    Kreslack Unknown Ranger lead the way!

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    I feel CC has largely gotten to be a much better option in N4 than it was N3. Engage and change face were rolled into dodge and it has made reactive CC significantly more effective and all the units with increased dodge movement got much more effective.
    Since many units can now leap around corners to engage, it is much easier to be threatening around tight spaces, objectives and corners. Those units with 3 and 4 inch dodge moves are particularly frightening. Even in the active turn you can now dodge around a corner into CC and give your opponent almost no chance to react to it.

    Many CC units also saw their raw CC value go up, and Martial Arts also improved for most units since MA Lv2 became equal to old level three. Many factions had lots of units with Lv2 and very few or none with Lv3+. The very elite CC units did lose access to the +1 B of MA Lv4, but far more units became significantly more effective in exchange. +1 burst pistols have even made a few mediocre CC value units like Wild Bill have a usable CC option against mooks, and strong CC pieces like Perseus and Uxia devastating against non CC units in active turn.

    Changes to Guard have made a few meh units quite scary defensive reactive pieces and active turn murder machines.

    I'm currently thrilled with the state of CC. Its not the core of the game. But mastering where and when to use it, is now a critical part of the game at an advanced level.
     
  13. jake richmond

    jake richmond Well-Known Member

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    Thats a good point. Waaaay back in N2I would sometimes take a Vanguard or Yaogat into close combat (especially if their Combi Rifles had been fried). Their slightly higher than average CC and PH made that mildly viable, even if it was mostly just for fun.

    These days it mostly seems like anything that isn't a CC specialist probably shouldn't even have a CC score. What's the point? You're not going to willingly take a Bagh Mari into CC, and if they're caught against a specialist their best hope is to waste orders with an armor save. That Bagh Mari may have a CC 16, but he'll never be in a situation where it will mater or he'll actually want to leverage it. He'll never be in CC with an Line Kazak or Moderator, where his higher CC gives him an advantage.

    At this point it seems like the CC stat is just a point sink for any non-Specialist. For mot units you could replace their CC stat with 1 and just let them roll to see f they get a crit and it wouldn't make any discernable difference.

    Thats not to say I'm unhappy with the current power of CC units. I do think specialists should be overwhelming against non-specialists. I'm just always disappointed that a higher than average CC score is pretty much meaningless, and I'd love to see an excuse for more average units to get into CC at last every now and then.
     
  14. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    Sometimes it is valuable to tie a TAG in cc and force it in a battle of coinflips where you may appreciate cc being non-zero

    cc even at 6 would make ftf mathematically unwinnable versus surprise attack and MA
     
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    There is a point in this system to them having a CC stat, but there is no point in having this stat vary so wildly as it does. If everyone currently below an effective value of 20 had a CC of 15 (arbitrary value) - just to have a tiny chance of having Mushashi stumble on a rock and impale himself on their dagger, we'd stop having to remember pointlessly random values.

    Still, I'd prefer there to be a point to having a CC value. Not that Zhanshi should have an advantage against Mushashi, but a Zhanshi should be better at killing a Fusilier with melee than by shooting their pistol at the very least. And a melee unit like Hospitaller should be able to seize the initiative to gain an advantage over a slightly better melee unit like a Wulver.

    Edit: why does two so different words like cease and seize sound so similar to each other :(
     
  16. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    While CC vs scrubs is a lot more viable in N4, CC internal balance is completely gone.
    Yes a CC22 MA2 guy will be very scary for a CC15 guy. It hits harder and has a better MOD than in N3.

    The same CC22 MA2 guy would have been quite scared of a CC25 MA5 guy in N3, who would have had a significant edge in CC.
    In N4 that gap is a heck of a lot smaller.
    The worst outliers here are Guard using making CC as a defensive stat irrelevant and how every NBW trooper got MA levels on top.
    N3 NBW could only use MODs himself or negate MODs for others. Now they get to do both, while lower MA levels have significantly more impact than in N3.
    In N3 a CC21 NBW vs CC25 MA5 would have canceled MA5 and it's 21 vs 25.
    In N4 a CC21 NBW vs CC25 MA5 suddenly can have up to MA2 and the same scenario is suddenly 24 vs 22.

    Most CC vs CC scenarios haven't really changed that much in raw values. They usually swing by 3 or 6 points total.
    However almost all of those changes affect the auto crit Range, either increasing CC beyond 20 or reducing CC from beyond 20 which significantly increases the impact per point.

    CC itself is certainly a very useful tool in N4 with faster CC Specialists, reworked Dodge and higher value per slot to make the Order investment into CC more attractive.
    But at the same time it's incredibly dull how little a Morlock and an Oniwaban diverge in threat factor once you are in CC. And how risky it is for your dedicated CC Specialist to engage someone baseline competent at CC.

    A BS 15 HMG with Mimetism (-6) will significantly outperform a BS12 HMG in all FTF scenarios during Active Turn. Worst case you get +3 BS impacting four 4 dice vs the dedicated counter (some sort of MSV2+).
    Problem here is it's the same for CC. A max performance CC specialist will outperform a baseline competent CC guy by a +3. Which then only affects 1 die, that's significantly lower impact.
     
    #16 Teslarod, Apr 9, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2021
  17. YueFei23

    YueFei23 Durian Inspector

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    I think minor cc stat increases probably don't blow up points cost as much as they used to. The Zhanshi vs Fusilier comparison would be an example. Assuming the Zhanshi was overpaying 1pt for +2 CC might have been correct in N3, but now the same Zhanshi has +1" dodge. That's a significant, useful skill they didn't have in N3. Good dodging is now the Yu Jing thing much more than "slightly better cc troops" and it can be useful in a lot of situations in N4.
     
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  18. LaughinGod

    LaughinGod Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    This is why I was suggesting that in N4 MA chart should be gone entirely and MA should just add burst to CC attack. This would be simple, meaningful and would clearly differentiate between brawlers and CC masters. CC skill of an individual trooper is much more transparent and easier to balance/adjust, charts are completely unnecessary IMO. But what do I know.
     
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  19. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

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    Ok, that would be cool. Being able to split burst vs. multiple mooks trying to gang up on a martial artist is also a fun-sounding cinematic mechanic.
     
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  20. Silas7

    Silas7 Member

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    And if you think about it, how far can a unit move in a single order. Now imagine in that same amount of 'time' how many blows could a trained killer throw/land. The lack of CC burst was always an odd quirk of Infinity.
     
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