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Why has CB split JSA from YJ?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by prophet of doom, Mar 5, 2018.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Well, it'd be Svalarheima and their Nisses in this case, though if they did do an unholy alliance sectorial it'd more be a lost opportunity for a sectorial than losing the actual units or you know, who knows...
     
  2. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Really? Religious is free and has noteable downsides for LI who like hugging the dirt after accidentially surviving a hit. Somehow Keisotsu at 9 points are great even with shitty stats - most people don't even care they have Courage as long as they're cheap Order Monkeys with Fireteam Core.
    Back to OS extra CC below 20 without MA/CCW/NBW/etc is a bad joke in terms of usefulness so that leaves us with +1 WIP. Which is pretty much exclusively used by the Paramedic when he gets to push a Button. Baseline 15 points per Link over Fusiliers ia lot to ask with marginal (if even that) benefits over Fireteams in the 50-70 points bracket. Their weapon options aren't great either, considering it's all pretty close Range and you can't even get a friggin Shotgun so shave some points off and properly threaten to be very efficient up close.

    It's exactly the other way around for Hospitaler Magister Links, they're the envy of every wannabe HI Fireteam there is. I'd sure as heck run OS if they had Panzerfaust + LSG Profiles (which would cost 12 points or so).
     
  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    @Teslarod Yeah, Keisotsu at 10 pts is much better (the FO profile upgrades them from a low cost nuisance to a low cost pain in the ass that can push buttons), no doubt. I'm just not seeing why it's productive to compare OS to Zhanshi, they are both kind of terrible* for the same reasons, but Religious is absolutely a benefit on these troops so that a blanket "worse than Zhanshi" merits deeper analysis.

    But let's get back to JSA and complaints about losing above mentioned 10pts specialist PITAs. :)

    * We're talking 1 pts, so... bad at least? In either case, kinda bad isn't good enough.
     
  4. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    Well, if we really are to discuss it here:

    Religious together with +1/+2 BS over Zhanshi/Keisotsu makes OS superior in terms of firepower, especially in defence, while still leaving them relatively unexpensive. We're looking at 67-75 pts cost, depending on exact weapon choices. Religious means that we don't have to worry about unit diving out of sight after surviving a hit. Same is true about Keisotsu - but they have BS 10. Sure, we pay 10-15 pts more for OS team, but this isn't a price high enough to break the unit.

    In the end OS are designed to a different template than standard Line Infantry, and that's good, especially since it gives them a few unique tools we can choose from. As a fireteam they're deliberately restricted, but it's not a problem in itself - only because MO in general are fairly inflexible as sectorial.

    What I'm really curious is how IA will fill the void left by JSA. I certainly expect it to be more shooty than JSA in the first place.
     
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  5. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    I'm not convinced Sval has the same presence in PanO as JSA did in YJ. It's Nisses, Jotum, aaand...?
    Hospitallers are stationed there I think, but they are MO really, so we wouldn't lose them if Sval dissapeared.

    Losing Nisse would suck but not as much as the short term loss YJ has had to JSA going.
     
  6. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Well if the fireteam bonanza continues I see some "inflation" in value of dreaded MO HI links....
     
  7. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    You mean losing Nisse HMG, for Nisse MSR we have (now) Kamau backup....
     
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  8. prophet of doom

    prophet of doom Well-Known Member

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    The BOW video says that YJ will keep the ninjas. So I guess there is nothing to worry about for vanilla players, apart from maybe losing a few characters. I hope they will feel that they already got enough use out of those models.

    With the Uprising week, maybe we will even learn what CB's business reasoning behind this move really was. I am happy that I got some reasonable answers from you guys so far.

    Yeah, i think the rising sun symbol is a bit questionable. There is even a unit symbol resembling a swastika. CB should be a bit more careful with their symbols.
     
  9. Aldo

    Aldo Trying to detox from being a lorefag

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    You may want to read up a bit on the real world Kempeitai if you think a vaguely swastika looking thing is carelessness on their part.
     
  10. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    I'm a bit surprised YJ didn't keep access to Shikami as well, but on the other hand Bostria's statement didn't sound like a definite "only Ninjas". And it's not like he was never mistaken before, anyway...

    As for swastika - it's not like nazis have it copyrighted, it's a widespread symbol. It's often use in early medieval recreation, in Asia it has a whole different design and meaning, and the actual symbol's design is definitely Asian, not European one. If anything I'd find the Kempeitai name more questionable, but if we start looking for questionable historical references it'll be a long discussion.
     
  11. Sibelius

    Sibelius Nope

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    Screenshot_20180306-205217.png
    lets not be stupid about the budist cross
     

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  12. Tom McTrouble

    Tom McTrouble Well-Known Member

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    Right but I think it's fair to say that world history gave it pretty universal association, the same way that different words get turned into harmful epithets. I agree it's a long discussion and unfortunately doesn't belong in this thread, but I actually would be really interested to different opinions on the use of historical symbols that could be divisive in a fictional setting where you can literally just create an alternate symbol.
     
  13. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    No really, that's the whole point. But I agree, this discussion belongs elsewhere.
     
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  14. prophet of doom

    prophet of doom Well-Known Member

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    Thank you very much for this suggestion. I was not aware of this term. I looked it up and I agree that this is pretty tasteless on the part of CB to say the least.

    I am German and thus a bit sensitive to such issues. There is no way I would play with minis that have a swastika or an SS logo. I know that other people feel differently about this without supporting historical war criminals. I agree we should not go off topic any further.
     
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  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    @prophet of doom it's not a few characters. They are of least concern.

    @Stiopa the Nazi Swastika is mirrored, nobody uses it mirrored for other purposes
     
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  16. chromedog

    chromedog Less than significant minion

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    CB has done "insensitive" stuff before.

    They originally called the "Tech bee" (for PanO) a "tech coolie".

    A "coolie" was an indentured worker, often Asian (primarily Chinese, but not always) used for labour. It's considered a "racially charged" term these days. "Tech bee" is meant to take inspiration from the USN construction battalions, the "sea bees" (CBs) - which is odd, because that's an American thing, and they aren't part of PanO.

    Admittedly, they DID change the name on that one.
     
    #76 chromedog, Mar 7, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    To be fair, that word has non-offensive implications across much of the world as well.
     
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  18. prophet of doom

    prophet of doom Well-Known Member

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    I have to admit that I was writing before thinking on the swastika part. I have visited Japan, they have the mirrored swastika there as a religious symbol a lot. It does make a bit of sense to use the swastika in a JSA logo like that. I am still not so cool about the imperial war flag.

    However, the Kempeitai is disturbing me now that i am in the know. I am certainly not getting a JSA force, as much as i like samurais and ninjas.
     
  19. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    Genuinely interested here: Is this "insensitivity" on CB's part really such a big issue for some of you that you would rather boycott the product?
     
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Have we really gotten to a point as a society where we have to ask if someone is not okay with favourable portraying of known war criminals and crimes against humanity? Is this really a question that you feel you need to ask?