I have some close question. PanO is relied of ALEPH more that lots of other faction as I know, but that is a question, why are we have no ALEPH invited specialists. For now it feels like we are playing Civilisation (Sid Meier's) and forgot about continue to improve our military forces from the past era. We developing other things, and worry little about this one. And CB forgot, it is a WARgame. I really feel PanO isnt fitting it's background... Could it be fixed? Yes. Would it be fixed? I dont know. Sometime I feel, that after release of O-12 some of PanO features was cut to be given to new force. But it may be not true because subjective. At least it reminds me about Neoterra role. (but that is another question)
O-12 pretty aggressively steps on Pano's toes for sure. PanO has antagonist syndrome which stops it from doing anything smart and its stuff is always stolen, lost or purged.
It’s a balance of what fluff powers we get on the table and which ones we don’t, how they fit in our own playstyles, the styles of those we play regularly, etc. And while it’s a wargame, it still grows and develops according to CB’s vision of what it ought to be and not be. We may not agree with it, but that’s how it’ll be. Units having profiles where the fluff doesn’t match the table (for good or ill) do and will continue to exist. It’s on us to decide if that’s something we can live with, and if not to find something different in the game that we can be OK with.
You might say that, and others might agree with you. Others, to varying degrees, would disagree. Regardless, whatever philosophy is the one that keeps CB invested in their game is the one that’s going to win out. And if they believe following the story allows them to also have a proper level of balance, that’s what they’re going to stick with. Forumites will swear up and down, “X is OP! Y is useless! Z needs a major rework!” and resist any evidence to the contrary. As an example, folks in this thread have dismissed the Bøyg as useless (based, it seems, entirely of theorycrafting) and dismissed out if hand other players noting the success on the table thry’ve had with them.
There are people here claiming they have success on the table using KHDs to attack Jazz through her own repeaters.
Idk if perfect balance is even possible in a wargame. Especially one so complex in interactions. I find it fun to try new things against known threats. It's fun to punch up. I like solving problems. If I wanted to play a perfectly balanced game I'd play Go. If I wanted it to feel more thematic I suppose I could play Go where each side had cool figures as pieces. What I worry about is CB overcorrecting trying to meet the demands of the players before anyone actually tries the things they complain about. I think we've all seen that ruin other games. Unit placement and choosing the right vector is still more important in this game than raw numbers. It's why I love this game over any other wargame I've been in contact with. I still see a lot of thinking on profiles that feels to me like carry overs from bad experience with other systems not to be named where you will absolutely loose for not bringing the top optimal thing. That CAN happen in infinity but every faction has some sort of tool that can deal with the threat. (There is currently 1 morat list I'd say is pretty close to unbeatable if it goes first.) I started this thread because I believe it's strait up incorrect to think that since pan-o hacking isn't the best that its not worth bringing. I do think the hacking in general, specifically guided attack rules could use some tweaking on the whole. I've made suggestions in other threads. (give Evo a program that can face to face against guided, Make ECM effect things in zone of control) My point is pan o is capable of doing the guided alpha strikes and quantronics focused lists that will win games. While trying not to get too personal I'll point out that it's kind of funny to me at this point that when I suggest to pan-o players they try hacking they'll tell me something to the effect of 'shooting is better' Ok.. then learn to play around the hackers if you don't want to play that game? what the heck? Just feels a bit salty to me. I'm sad to see it. I'm just trying to have fun with my space dolls. There's so many more important things in life to get mad about.
Well... I am mostly not about radical changes. Of course final word would after CB, but it doesn’t mean we can’t say our thoughts about this. I still believe PanO needs some updates. Some other factions too need that. Company sometime could see people’s opinion (if they are not like GW, but they are fine even with that). A little. Just a little, not make changes right after first complaining of course. And CB sometime are watching what happened after all in community. So, better not be passive too.
It isn't bad because it's not the best, it's bad because you will actively die faster if you try when the enemy brings top-tier Hacking. Wide Repeater networks and adding Hackable members into Fireteams backfires hard when your Hackers don't stand a chance in a FTF roll; it's like leaving half the army out to ARO with Combi Rifles. It can be made to work, but many players on here play at tournament levels where mitigating risk is king and unfortunately relying on Hacking is a huge risk that allows most of your Specialists and "big guns" to be killed without the opponent even needing to bother with positioning in many cases- it takes about 10 Orders to cross the board while dealing with AROs for a top shooter like the Hsien HMG, it takes one to put a Pitcher in place in the enemy DZ in many cases. Forcing the opponent to spend much of their turn on Movement and other skills that don't win them the game or threaten your units is frankly PanO's best defense, you don't give that up without having something solid to gain from all that risk. Personally I opt for a token presence (often one Fusilier) backed up by Marker options, it makes my REMs annoying to pass and tends to require more effort than it's worth to remove.
And not just through her own repeaters, but in her Zone of Control, and by shooting her in the face, both at range and up close… and always, but always, we mean it.
Nine Nine! Sorry. Couldn’t resist, love that show. can attest to killing her with PanO, my haqqi are looking forward to match ups too but they’re still not painted... My absolute favourite one so far though was at my FLGS. I watched a player completely outflank his opponent with a Varuna orc team. His opponent had been a bit cocky and had moved some units closer to objectives on one side of his table. This has taken them relatively out of LoS from anything advancing down that side. It took a few orders but the Varuna player managed to sneak up behind Jazz who was sequestered in a building facing out the window and prone. The team proceeded to boarding shotgun her in the back. She had to dodge as ARO and it didn’t end well. The orc link couldn’t be reacted to until then due to their stealth and no one being able to draw LoS to them. It was damn funny. A lot of orders but it was funny.
Personally, I have killed her with Maria Problematica solo through her own repeaters and as coordinated attack with Haidao killer and Zhencha again through her own repeaters, these are not PanOceania units you say, well yes, they are not, as I said I played mostly Invincibles and White Banner the last year.
Nice. Thanks for the tip, I’ll have to pick up some zhencha in due course for my white banner, haven’t played my yu jing in ages.
That sounds like a really notable game moment) And... What a thrill With darkness and silence through the night What a thrill I'm searching and I'll melt into you What a fear in my heart But you're so supreme! I give my life Not for honor, but for you Snake eater In my time there'll be no one else Crime, it's the way I fly to you Snake eater I'm still in a dream, snake eater! (And am hearing this in my head while imaging it in a cinematographic way)
Zhencha are Invincible units, I am not sure I would engage her in hacking duel with white banner given how many Superjump units are available in that army.
PanO's Hacking is a force multiplier not a combat focus in and of itself. The clearest example of this is the ZC KHD Zulu Cobra KHD - It's primary target by hacking is going to be punching down to "lower" grade or separated hackers away from a repeater network and other support. But how it leverages hacking to support its shooting. It can deploy in a camo state and then spend an order to switch into Cybermask to be able to scalpel out things with its Breaker Combi and still benefits from Surprise Attack since it has it organically. Now it's able bring its Breaker Combi into use against the target or leverage its Trinity (against a Hacker) especially if they're coming through a saturation zone. B3 (trinity) v B2 (breaker Combi). In the end you need to ask how will this Hacking assist my shooting and how do i force my opponent into a ftf regardless of the odds.
Mary is one of the few KHD profiles that can actually do that because she has AP Trinity. Also, you're playing hacking wrong you can't coordinate hack with a Haidao and Zencha. "Coordinated Order and Hacking Programs If the player declares a Coordinated Order to use Hacking Programs, the usual restrictions apply - each participating Trooper must use the same Hacking Program and choose the same single target, if a target is required" Using Trinity and Oblivion at the same time in a coordinated order is cheating, not that it really matters you're making a stupid low % play anyway.
Indeed they are, my apologies. I haven’t looked at yu jing for so long, I forget what’s in each force. They’re really nice minis too. I’ll have to pick them up at some point. Won’t be for a while. I dropped a lot on a QK/Druze army recently. I’ve seen high% rolls fail utterly and low ones succeed despite everything. The dice gods are fickle creatures that dwell in the dark places of our reality. I should know, I speak to them often. Problem is they've started to speak back…
Low percentage plays can be some of the most enjoyable plays. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. And if you're coming at it with troops that can last the first attack, well... GO FOR IT!
