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Why don't HB/Haqq Impersonators cost SWC?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Hecaton, Oct 26, 2021.

  1. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    Mates, Bombs, Libertos, Taqeul are all things you take regardless in the average Tohaa list, the opportunity cost there is minimal.

    I also listed all of them, but a single one is plenty to completely deny a Speculo.

    Just having anything preventing the base-to-base contact with your Taqeul LT is going to be enough to deny the Speculo.

    As Tohaa, it's trivial to deploy in a way that a Fiday or a Speculo will only be trading at best, and with whatever you let it trade with. Without being able to reach BtB contact with your key troopers, those impersonators are about as good as their respective faction linetroopers, and they'll just die to templates. The same thing can't be said about Jaan.
     
    #61 Diphoration, Oct 30, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2021
  2. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    How? You're advocating stacking multiple troops on top of each other to body block, which just means they'll all get shotgunned.
     
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  3. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    You block the pathways, like put a model in front of the stairs to up go a building, put a model in a doorway to another one, put one in a corridor, etc.

    You have access to 2 mates on troopers that don't need to stack up to easily survive any attack from an impersonator. You prob don't have more than 3 troopers that you would be unhappy to trade 1:1 for the Speculo. And that 3rd trooper you can body block with a Mine.

    If you somehow got a very bad deployment (after picking the side, since you got access to the side you want if the Sha player gets to go first), and you really want to be extra safe with your LT, and also don't have access to Mine in the list you took. Stacking a random other trooper in front of it still isn't going to be likely that both will die to a shotgun. You just Dodge with the front trooper and ARO with the LT. And just make sure there is a Taqeul, a Bomb, a Delegate or a Kriigel within 8" of that LT (which should not be much of an issue).

    Tohaa is really well equipped to deal with Impersonators.

    There is also a ton of other tools that can trivialise an Impersonator (but not Jaan), such as deploying a multi-trooper reserve to surround the impersonator (Liberto Minelayer and Peacemaker being the ideal candidate) or factions that have access to MadTraps / CrazyKoala (which can both block the pathway to CC and neutralize the Impersonator once it reveals. Factions that favour camo spam are also in a pretty good spot imo.
     
  4. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Not possible on many tables.

    Ok cool. You said that if they managed to kill your Taquel you deployed poorly. Now you're talking about trading and loss amelioration.

    Cool, not every faction has those, and the factions that don't don't have other advantages to make up for it.
     
  5. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    It's possible on a lot of tables. Any time an impersonator deploys near a wall they can be blocked off. If they're not near a wall, they're going to be in the open.

    If they manage to kill your Taqeul, you did deploy poorly, I listed a lot of tools that you can do to mitigate it. Obviously nothing is going to be 100%. A Speculo could tank a bunch of template, end-game, eraser, mines and be super lucky and eventually go through all your things. But it's unrealistic.

    If you put something in the pathway to reach the Taqeul (doorway or block a ladder while Taqeul in on the rooftop) the Impersonator will have to survive a trade with that thing (in the case of Tohaa, most likely a Chaksa flamethrower and a end-game from the Taqeul). Or alternatively the Impersonator will need to roll to deploy in your DZ.

    After that step, their best possible way to kill your Taqeul will be to double template it, it's going to be pretty hard for that to kill the Taqeul as it will also be opposed by other stuff protecting the Taqeul (Mine in front of the Taqeul, another pheroware user within 8", with Taqeul being such a high pick, Delegate being such a easy inclusion and 2 Bombs being auto-include, its basically a no opportunity cost thing)

    If they somehow bypassed your first thing, did 2 wound to the Taqeul through the Symbiomate (the Taqeul could've easily Dodge or FtF if the impersonator used impact mode to even further mitigate it), then your Taqeul will have to fail its Regenerate roll.

    So yes, obviously things could fail, but the likely hood of that all failing is going to be because you misdeployed poorly more than because your opponent is rolling like it's got a horse shoe up their ass.

    Yeah, some factions are shit out of luck, which is why I often say that impersonators are problematic. My point was not that things can counter all impersonators, but that Tohaa are particularly problematic because not only can they trivialize most impersonators, but because all the counters I listed that can counter impersonator super hard are mediocre at best versus Jaan.

    TL;DR: Nerf Tohaa
     
  6. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Yeah, Haqq players have always said that 2W models tend to be bad targets for Fidays. I wouldn't want to send one after a well-deployed Taquel with a symbiomate. Especially knowing that one of those Kaeltars could have Chain of Command.
     
  7. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    If we are back to Haqq, then we need to consider that two 26 point Fiday (the one with DA weapon and thus capable of killing two-wound troopers in one attack) cost less than a Taqeul Lt. and a CoC Kaeltar. And if you go for the shotgun route, thanks to the mobility that Imp-1 provides you can throw a lot of teamplates to decimate the oponent's list against targets not protected by the hyphotetical 2nd Taqeul.

    Those two Fiday also cost almost the same as Jaan + Symbiobomb/Symbiomate, while giving you the chance to be in two spots at the same time, or to use one for cleaning the troops/mines that protect the Lt. and then the other one to go after the Lt., or to almost warrantee that you get at least one deployed inside the Deployment Zone (two WIP 14 rolls is pretty good)...
     
    #67 Abrilete, Nov 2, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2021
  8. KedzioR_vo

    KedzioR_vo Well-Known Member
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    Are you trying to offend Fidays?
    They have WIP 15.
    :P


    PozdRawiam / Greetings
     
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  9. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    Idk why we're comparing prices by naming the single most bloated profile in Tohaa (Kaeltar CoC).

    As for the Hypothetical 2nd Taqeul, I personally think it's a pretty cheap opportunity cost, as I usually always run double Taqeul. But if you somehow did not, the list still has 2 SymbioBomb and Delegate that does the same role to defend vs the Fiday.

    As for the basic Kaeltar, which are as auto-include as it gets, are extremely low opportunity cost. Barely any point over your cheapest cheerleader (you essentially pay 3-5 points for the Mate + Bomb depending on if you compare it to a Kamael to fill your defensive triad or a Chaksa to act as corner guard).

    Fiday + Fiday is 54 points. Jaan + Kaeltar is 46. And if you only consider the points you're risking on Jaan (your Kaeltar is doing its cheerleader job in your DZ for its point worth regardless), it's a 34-36 points package.

    If we're going to start comparing things with point value, can we at least make an effort? The concept of opportunity cost
     
  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it's possible for a unit to be bloated when it's 21 points for a Chain of Command unit, and that's before considering the SymbioMons. It doesn't really matter that the Kaeltar is somewhat worse equipped than a Kempei, IMO, as the skill is an insurance a lot more than an asset. Given that I've never seen a Tohaa go into LoL because of how pointless it is killing the LT when there's two CoC spread in the DZ (warning: N3 experience, 2xMate CoC was cheaper back then, iirc) I just don't see how this profile can be considered bloated.

    Still, that underscores how little value it is to point at a Kaeltar+Jaan combo and say they don't threaten as much as two Fiday, as the Kaeltar has so much more utility than just making Jaan great.
     
  11. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    It's 6 points and 0.5 SWC to get Chain of Command. The SWC tax throws off a lot of the list building possibilities, you end up giving up losing a big weapon in your list for that trade (And Tohaa can have a hard time juggling around with their SWC). 6 points is also the point difference between upgrading your Sakeul LT to a Taqeul LT.

    I personally think the Taqeul are so core to N4 Tohaa that I always take 2 anyway, and getting a second CoC when my LT has 2W, Regen and my CoC has 2W, Regen, and both can have mates is a pretty significant opportunity cost waste. Some factions would be happy paying 6 points and 0.5 SWC to upgrade a line troop to a CoC, but Tohaa, not so much.

    (N3 Kaeltar were forced to take the CoC profile it if they wanted to have SymbioMates and they didn't have the N4 Taqeul as one of their best troopers to easily fill the CoC slot)
     
    #71 Diphoration, Nov 2, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2021
  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    What about HB tho?
     
  13. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    You've just picked the most expensive Fiday profile, it starts at 25 points. That means that Fiday + Fiday starts at 50 points. Looks that I did make the effort to take a look at the Army.

    Also, if we are talking about oportunity cost, then I don't know why you are so concerned about an insignificant 4 to 8 point difference and not about the 1SWC difference. Isn't that a more limiting factor than 2% of your points allowance? After all, you seemed very concerned about the 0.5SWC cost of the CoC Kaeltar (by the way, first time I've ever heard someone call that profile "bloated").

    By the way, a basic Fiday costs just 25 points, 6 less than Jaan. As you pointed, "is also the point difference between upgrading your Sakeul LT to a Taqeul LT". I'd love to have the possibility of spending just 25 points in an attack piece with a 75% chance to be deployed anywhere on the table that can literally walk around the enemy troopers, with a heavy penalty on the Discover roll (pretty frustarting for the oponent if he fails in Discover roll because the trooper that failed the roll cannot try again).


    Now, regarding your list building... two Taqeul + two Kaeltar, with the Mates assigned to both Taqeul. That means no Mate for Jaan or any offensive piece, unless you are taking the "bloated" CoC Kaeltar profile that brings two Mates.

    All this goes back to a previous point: you are spending a lot in one deffensive Lt. (with backup CoC) and its protectors, about 100 points just between the Taqeuls and the Kaeltars, 1/3 of your points allowance. Although you seem to disregard Lt. offuscation tactics, any player spending 100 points between it's Lt. and it's protectors (either with a layered deffense or using baits) can feel pretty confident against Impersonators.


    Going back to the Fiday, two cheap Impersonators deploying in Imp-1 state have important advantages, like:
    - Two different attack vectors in active turn, to either try two times to take out the Lt, to completly dismantle a Fireteam, to wip out lot of cheerleaders...
    - Two frustrating roadblocks in reactive turn, specially compared with a Mate-eqquiped Jaan. I mean, Jaan is easy to take out at medium to long-range, you just spend a couple of orders shooting it with a HMG or Spitfire. An Imp-1 marker, on the other hand... unless you get close or use some specific equipment, you first have to discover the marker with about a 33% success chance and if you fail, you'll have to spend orders again to position another trooper.
    - Almost warranteed chance to at least success deploying one Impersonator anywhere in the table.
    - Flexibility in your approach when attacking the oponent: close combat, teamplate, shotgun, smoke... you can maneuver freely before striking, and then if you succed you can keep going and maybe even reenter Imp-1 (if you fail the attack attemp, try again with the other Impersonator). Jaan+Mate seems to have similar tools, but without the flexibility of Imp-1 (and because the "use once, then discard" nature SymbioMate/Bomb) you better not fail your first and only attemp.
     
  14. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    I took the good Fiday profile, I don't play any of the other ones as HB. 2 extra points to have access to Shock Mines is invaluable. Not only that, but the 25 points profile doesn't even have DA CCW...

    Fiday + Fiday = 50-54

    Jaan + Greif = 51

    What 1 SWC difference?

    If you're talking about the difference in SWC between Fiday and Jaan, it's a ridiculous argument. You can't compare SWC cost differences cross-faction, especially when one of Haqq's main strength is having things cost no SWC (Fiday, Daylami, Minelayer, Nadhir).

    You need to check the inner balance of SWC within the faction, and yes the 0.5 SWC of the Kaeltar matters a whole lot, when it could prevent you from taking Jaan, which is one of the most impactful Tohaa model by giving you a 2nd or 3rd source of CoC, which will rarely ever matter.

    As I said, this Fiday profile is not even worth running when the 2 point upgrade for mines exist. At the point Jaan is a 4 point upgrade.

    Regardless, 4 or 6 points to get an extra wound, viral ammo, shock mines (if we're talking paying 6 points), the ability for a mate and the ability to have a bomb in their DZ is on a whole other level than getting a 2nd or 3rd CoC in your list when the other CoC profiles have 2 wounds and are premium troopers.

    I've already illustrated plenty on how Jaan has very obvious upsides compared to the other impersonators. (Doesn't die to a mine, doesn't die to a single template, doesn't get impeded by perimeter weapons, most likely survive any first ARO, can threaten to dismantle any fireteam on the first order by threatening ARO fork, can attack anything unopposed via ARO fork, can have a shot at isolating a well protected LT, etc.)

    You're not spending 100 points to have a hard to kill LT. You're spending 100 points because Taqeul are busted and a staple of Tohaa. They go in every list and are all around amazing. The fact that they're LT and CoC and extremely resilient (2 wounds, decent ARM, SymbioMate'able, Regen) is just a bonus on top.

    The Symbiomate's strength is that they can be adapted to the matchup, not a lot of factions have the benefit of tailoring post-armybuilder. You can adjust where they're deployed to edge versus what you're facing. Going first? Jaan Staar is a good candidate. Facing a double Fiday or double Speculo list? Your LT+CoC are not very likely to survive. Need a more balanced approach? Your HMG is extra tanky. Bombs on whatever fit your deployment plans.

    You're not paying for the Mate and Bomb to go specifically on something. You're paying their cost (which is pretty damn low for what it does) to apply it to whatever will benefit your list in any given game.

    My point with the deployment was that Tohaa, apart from having access to the hardest to counter Impersonator (see my numerous previous post on how he ignores most of what trivialises the other impersonators) also have access to those numerous tools to deal with impersonators, without actually changing how they build their list.

    This is called free opportunity cost. Pretty neat concept that I keep referring to throughout all of this thread.

    - Tohaa also has access to a Greif if you want a second attack vector (I usually take it too). The combined cost of Greif + Jaan is cheaper than the Minelayers Fiday, or 1 point over the double 25 points Fiday.

    -Fidays are def better in reactive turn.

    -If you're rolling both your Fidays with hope that you're "guaranteed" to deploy anywhere, yikes.

    -You have to be kidding me now if you think the Fiday is more flexible than Jaan. This is an actual joke right? A Fiday is more flexible than a model who can ignore perimeter weapons, mine, single burst templates, has 2 wounds, direct template, mines, viral, good CC and SymbioBomb? Come on.

    - - - - -

    I'm not saying Fidays are bad, they're one of the best troopers in the game. But let's maybe try to compare things by being a bit less disengenuous?
     
    #74 Diphoration, Nov 3, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2021
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  15. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    Ok, I'm done, I made my point clear for anyone who wants to read it.
     
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  16. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    HB get access to everything that is annoying to deal with in the game, and good version of each of them.

    Hidden Deployed Direct Template ARO
    Impersonators
    Camo Spam
    Good Repeater / Hacker + Guided
    Strong Rambo

    They're probably more annoying to play versus than Tohaa, but their stuff are all a lot more fragile and they are a bit more prone to having some of their substrategies countered. Whereas having 2W, triads and a bunch of pheroware stuff is just good regardless of what your opponent brings.

    I've got a lot more experience fielding Tohaa than I have HB (though I've faced HB way more than Tohaa and I much rather face HB than face Tohaa personally, but that might just be because my factions match up fairly well versus them). My next 30-games challenge is going to be with HB (I'm assembling the models at the moment so I can play them in person :upside_down_face:, so I'll gladly comment back after!)
     
  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @Diphoration the difference between Imp-1 and Imp-2 is huge and I don't think you addressed that in your comparison sufficiently.

    HB's profiles are good enough that the opportunity cost isn't really there either.
     
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  18. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    Fair comment, I think it's mostly a big difference in the reactive turn for when you want to use your impersonator to make your opponent waste orders. Failing the first discover roll can really make someone miserable. They might be forced to spend an extra order on whoever discovered to move them out of the way, then spend 1-2 orders on another trooper to come take its place and attempt it again. Even in good range, an opponent failing a couple times is not going to be that rare of an occurence and can really ruin their turn 1.

    As a comparative, the Speculo (Minelayer) is even better in that scenario, starting with a Mine they need to deal with and having Regeneration to force them to waste an extra order if they only put your Unconscious.
     
  19. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Sure, but it costs more, as well as 1.5 SWC, so there's a more meaningful opportunity cost for it. Which is exactly the point in my OP post.
     
  20. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    Maybe Infinity isn't a math problem to be solved?
     
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