So let me elaborate. Based off of my experience playing with and against both IMP1 and IMP2 units, the thing that prevents a player from effectively making a counter-play - regardless of unit price - is the fact that you can not fully discover an IMP1 and since unlike with Camouflage there are no alternative ways of discovering or harming an IMP unit while it chooses not to reveal. The distance such a unit can cover in the extra order means that typically it is the IMP1 player who decides whether the IMP1 unit(s) perform well or not. Compared to IMP2 units which have a smaller reach and only one layer, the IMP2 units can still be extremely good and difficult to deal with, particularly thanks to the very advanced deployment - but it isn't the game mechanics that makes these units that way, but rather the player's terrain, list, and objective awareness. A good opponent to IMP2 will have a chance of counter-acting it where against IMP1 this is mainly taken away from the opponent. Arguably, one could also address the infiltration ability instead. Hidden Deployment units with infiltration - even superior infiltration (though it gets close) - isn't in this way. However, deploying really far forward seems to be the primary reason for impersonation, though I do have reservations about allowing units to deploy inside opponent's deployment zones as this, too, removes counter-play from the game. So my assessment is that the price on IMP1 doesn't matter, the price will never be fair to both players because the mechanics do not allow the ability to be fair
Still have to deploy without Impersonator state, and that allows for some counter deployment because the oponent will deploy its last miniature (or miniatures) knowing exactly what it is facing. And the cost has just increased from 31 points to a minimum of 46, almost 1/6 of your points allowance for a suicide trooper.
So they pay for it :) Do fidays have symbioarmour? Or are they able to one-shot a TAG or completely deny HI armour? But I am agree that at least one fiday profile must pay SWC – it's a minelayer one. By the way, where is it? Do you think, you are playing the game intended to support high-competitive tournaments, not lazy friendly meetings with brilliant miniatures and beer? ;-)
Haqq's theme is not paying SWC it seems: Nadhir, Farzan Minelayer, Fiday. To be fair though, if they were appropriately SWC priced, idk if it would change a whole lot to how I built my HB lists which were usually at 1.5 or 2 SWC anyway.
There is very little counterplay possible for Jaan if the Tohaa player goes first. I think Jaan is, by far, the most unblanced trooper in the game and the trooper with the least amount of counterplay. 2 Wounds + Mates (which is pretty often 2-3 extra wounds) The ability to fork ARO in a way that you always have the option of attacking unopposed. Can dismantle a link more easily than anything in the game.
2 wounds + mates doesn't mean much if it's going to eat lots of ARO getting to its target. One single crit can take him directly to unconscious, and when you roll lots of dice some hits get through. It is not very probable if your oponent deployed in such a way that you have a nice target at short range and you can avoid most enemy troopers, but it is still worse than just ignoring the enemy because he has to discover you twice thanks to the magic of full Impersonator, or using Smoke grenades. And Jaan is armed with light weapons, you might just sacrifice him for nothing if your target survives your first attack; 1/6 of your CAP and points allowance that can go to waste in a single suicide attack.
All balancing should be done based around the assumption of competitive gaming. Playing at home for laughs it doesn't really matter, and there are better games for that IMO.
Jaan is realistically not going to take "lots of ARO" before getting to things he wants to kill, they'll at most get a reserve to try to deny him and you can easily just re-enter impersonation if you need it to get to other stuff. Jaan can engage such a wide range of things that you can fight most stuff on the way there. His odds of dying to a combi crit is 0.25%. Saying that "2 wounds + mates" doesn't mean much is disengenuous. Dying from a single crit is one hell of an anomaly (especially if you're ARM12) and anything in the game with 2W can die from a single crit. That still doesn't change the fact that a model with 2W and Symbiomate is still one of the most resilient thing you can field in the game. Jaan's biggest strength is the ability to attack things unopposed and to have an absurdly high chance of not trading (and he will never trade with a single DTW, it's going to take 2 at the very least, 3-4 being a much more realistic expectation). Which is simply not the case for any of the other impersonators, which will trade with be forced to trade with anything equipped with a DTW.
The other impersonators don't have to get any shot when the target is covered in smoke and cannot even see the target until they are being cut in half in close combat. And Jaan cannot spend two orders walking in front of the whole enemy list without any worry thanks to how full Impersonator works. If you deploy Jaan with the mate attached (by the way, ARM9, not 12), you are going to be the objective of enemy AROs the moment you activate. And once you make a single roll, the mate is gone. Full Impersonators can move a minimum of 50cm throught the whole table (two Orders + the first half of a third Order) until the enemy can even think of doing anything other that try to discover or wait for its death. How can you say that Jaan is "the trooper with the least amount of counterplay" when there are other Impersonators that can move freely for at least two Orders (more if the oponent fails their discover rolls, first one at -6) without any weapon, teamplate or deployable working?
Y'all may be talking past each other, I think maybe some of you think the mate can be deployed on Jaan while in impersonation state, and others think not.
I don't know that anybody thinks that in this discussion. - - - - - You deploy Jaan as your last reserved model, your opponent can only have model to deploy to counter deploy Jaan. If you're seen by multiple models as soon as you activate, that's 100% on you. The other impersonators absolutely need the double impersonation state, because they're 1W and die to literally anything with a DTW. Jaan can just deal with whatever their reserve was, then go on to kill whatever you intended him to kill. Starting the game with a 2W, Mate, Bomb, DTW, B3 Viral, High CC trooper in the literal best spot you could want is pretty damn oppressive. And from my experience, your opponent having a single reserve to deal with it is rarely enough to make up for that. The other impersonator can go deeper before starting their attack, but they'll still end up trading when they reveal. The other impersonators have to use that state to go straight to the most important target and will end up trading there most of the time. Jaan just starts doing damage from the first orders and can chew at a large portion of the enemy list. - - - - - As an exercise, I've extended that challenge to other people before, but I'd love to see a deployment that would be Jaan-proof where you wouldn't just be crippled (assuming expected results from average dice).
I'm sorry, i'm just trying to understand. Are you talking about deploying Jaan without impersonation to have a bomb/mate? Are you saying this is the ideal method, instead of using impersonation? If you don't use impersonation, can you still forward deploy?
Impersonation allows the trooper to deploy outside the DZ/in the enemy DZ with a roll, and also allows to deploy in the IMP state, but neither are written as being mandatory or having the other as a prerequisite IIRC.
You are painting some kind of ideal scenario where Jaan's targets are weak (one wound, low damage weapons, low ARM and BTS) and isolated, and the oponent can only deploy one trooper to ARO Jaan when it activates (a trooper that will of course fail to remove Jaans first wound because it'll be using a Combi Rifle while Jaan is in cover to get ARM 12). Then Jaan goes on a killing spree removing miniatures one by one. Every other non-Tohaa Impersonator can do exactly the same under the coverage of smoke, and with better stats to kill their target in close combat. And unlike Jaan, their Smoke Grenades do not spend after one use. Or they can just spend a couple of Orders to nonchalantly move deep behind the enemy lines thanks to their two Impersonator levels to smoke and then kill their targets with better chances. After they are done, they can recover the Impersonator state inside the Smoke and go on. When it is their oponent turn back again, they'll have to spend at least a couple of Orders for a Discover and then a Discover+Shoot in order to try to remove that threat that is just hanging around their Deployment Zone. Even better, they have better WILL to risk directly deploying anywhere on the table.
Thinks which one? To me it looks like you think Jaan can have both imp and a mate, while some others think he has to be in model state to be given the mate. Anyway y'all should probably clarify since from outside the conversation it still looks like you're talking past each other.
I do not think that, nor did I mention that it was the case. Jaan can use his impersonation skill to deploy up to the DZ (or in the DZ with a roll) without using the marker state. He can then be attached with mates / bombs. Jaan can also enter the marker state at any point after that. I think everyone was on the same page for this conversation.
Jaan's target don't even need to be particularly weak. Impersonators can easily deny cover when they attack and a damage 12 DA on BTS will chew through most things available in the game. (It's better than shooting with a HMG or Sniper at someone in cover.) The other impersonator can lay down smoke to avoid the DTW, but that requires them to be outside of LoF of the things they wish to engage, succeed a smoke throw and then move to CC (which will usually be more movement intensive than moving to shoot) to be able to accomplish the same thing that Jaan could've done by just tanking the DTW. The other Tohaa impersonator do not have the same toolset that Jaan has. The Kiiutan does not have a DTW, so it cannot force the same ARO forks that Jaan can. It will not be able to attack things unopposed should they decide to shoot with a BS Attack requiring a roll. Kiiutan is a lot less threatening. The Greif also doesn't have a DTW and is only 1 wounds. - - - - - To be fair, I think impersonators as a whole are problematic and way above the power level of other similarly priced units. I just think Jaan is a notch too high because of how reliable he is (due to his multi-wounds, mate) and how he can ignore most things that would normally trade with impersonators and hit them unopposed.
