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Why can't you plant D-Charges in Looting & Sabotaging?

Discussion in 'ITS' started by Hecaton, Dec 19, 2019.

  1. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Yes, I know the rules reason why you can't, but my question is more about why the scenario was written such that that is true.

    It is arguably the worst mission in ITS for that reason.
     
  2. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    Their intent was probably to create a mission that favours CC troopers. Most of the missions try to favour different types of troopers.

    Engineer / Hacker are favoured in Acquisition.
    Doctor / Paramedic are favoured in Supplies.
    Baggage troopers are favoured in all zone control missions.
    High movement troopers are favoured in Biotechvore.
    etc.

    It's the way they found to give incentive to CC troopers.

    It is a very hard mission for some faction, but also the best for some other.
     
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  3. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Well-Known Member

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    Because otherwise the mission would have been trivial.
    As it stands now it forces you to adjust your list, i.e. if your are running The Typical OSS List you either need to learn using Andromeda (and find a place in one of your 2 tournament lists) or escort Dakini Paramedic under Apsaras and fireteam CC Burst bonus through the field stopping at panoplies.
     
  4. jfunkd

    jfunkd Rebel Myrmidon Graffiti Artist
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    The mission is what it is. I'll play it, but I don't like it even when I'm running a faction that makes killing the AC/2 easier.

    It is the most exclusionary mission in ITS, beating out Show of Force IMO. I hate seeing it on a 5 scenario lineup because it instantly handicaps too many factions. Not everyone has the luxury of, or is willing to choose their faction based on the scenarios for an event.

    The idea of the mission is cool, but the AC/2 and forced CC are just bad.

    Shooting it with anti materiel would make it trivial, but the mission wouldn't be trivial with planted d-charges. The AC/2's ARM is so high that 2 D-charges rarely kill it. You still need to get there and it would take 2 activations for every d-charge, making it an order sink. It's entirely possible a unit runs out of D-charges before it's destroyed. CC would still be the most efficient and favored way to take the AC2 down. Planting d-charges would at least let some other factions have an opportunity, or a second-chance unit to take it down.

    TAGs punching the AC/2 had to be a joke rule, and a bad one at that because the odds are so awful. I can't even believe someone wrote that rule with a straight face.

    The odds for a Szally to do one wound are 29% per activation. One. Effing. Wound. Didn't we learn from previous seasons of ITS where -3 mods to buttons existed that a sub 50% per activation for objectives was a negative play experience?

    I'm not normally negative about something CB has produced, but this mission is a good concept with poor execution.
     
    #4 jfunkd, Dec 19, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2019
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  5. Cannon Fodder

    Cannon Fodder Well-Known Member

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    @jfunkd I agree this mission is a bit off compared to the other missions. Some factions have a trivial time of it, while others have to work hard for it. But I must say in general CB has gotten better at mission building. I think it was ITS 8 or 9 where you needed to drop some sort of markers out of your deployment zone, and people just brought lists with the most cheap specialist possible (5 man fire teams of FOs) to drop as a many as possible. If both sides had the same list philosophy you didn't even try and attack. For the most part CB has gotten away from scenario that need extremely dedicated lists. Looting and sabotaging is probably the last of them. Armory to a lesser extent. Its ok to have a 1 or 2 each each season to add variety, but I'm glad most of them are playable with lists designed for fun vs the scenario.
     
  6. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    What I see is that forbiding to plant and then detonate D-charge make this mission super hard for some armies or require hyper specialized list.

    Don't understand why planting and detonating (2 orders) would be more powerful than just CC it with Explosive CC weapon and martial art (1 order).
     
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  7. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It requires CC troopers with anti-materiel weapons. That's very different from just CC troopers; playing it with USARF is a damn nightmare.
     
  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It's there to confuse new players into thinking that's a good idea. Because making missions that are super inaccessible to new players is such good design...
     
  9. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It's not trivial to get a dude with d-charges to the enemy deployment zone and plant a few.
     
  10. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Anyway, I was trying to see if someone had a good reason for this... and as far as I can tell, it just doesn't exist. No idea why this mission is still in ITS when Comms Center et al isn't.
     
  11. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    They felt it would be more balance and less brainless that way (for ex, MRRF got limited infiltration metro with D-charge ava total. That would be juste be a matter of luck if you field 10 of them ... but they could say the exclusion zone extend to the limit of deployement zone for the other player ...)

    But as you say it's a misstake imho
     
  12. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Well-Known Member

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    It absolutely is
    In ISS Sophotech reaches AC2 and touches it in three orders (6-4, 6-4, 6-plant). With reliable smoke LGL in faction if there were no CC limitation, it would've been close to autowin when going first against someone without sufficient number of minelayers or jammers.
    Likewise for any infiltration trooper with d-charges it becomes a matter of one suicide run - engineer back at home can detonate it.
    When you get an additional CC check it balances things out and makes you rethink list construction to be effective.

    This mission is important enough for ITS to have units specifically designed with antimaterial CC capabilities.
     
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  13. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    A lot of CC specialist with explosive CC weapons can do exactly the same thing that you describe with the Sophotech. They do an auto hit because they hit on 20+.

    Here are a few exemple :
    - Pano : Teutonic Knight (and get assault on 18+ ... not bad), Joan of Arc, Seraph
    - Nomade : Perseus (DA but MA), Pupnik (DA but 3 attacks) and both have eclipse
    - Haqq : Kasym beg, Hassassin fiday (DA but reliable deploiement and smoke)
    - Aleph : lot of greek heroes

    At the same time Varuna, MRRF, OSS and probably a few others don't get any CC specialist with antimaterial wepons outside of some random dude without good CC stats but with D-charges.
     
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  14. jfunkd

    jfunkd Rebel Myrmidon Graffiti Artist
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    This is probably the least amount of orders necessary for a Sophotech (a Mary Sue d-charge planter) with an accurate smoke LgL in support and doesn't account for MSV-2, Minelayers, jammers, or any level of competent layered defense on the approach.
    1. Move-Smoke LgL
    2. Move-Smoke LgL
    3. move-move
    4. move-move
    5. move-plant
    6. plant
    7. plant
    8. detonate
    9. detonate
    10. detonate
    This also only has a 66% chance of Killing the AC/2. To be fair it's 86% to do 3 Structure.

    The above is an ideal scenario assuming you'll need to plant one smoke along the way to cover the Sophotect, which I think is reasonable to assume, but sure it could be nine orders (or even 8) if your opponent didn't field a defense at all.

    I don't think you've done the math on this, it's not even close to what I'd define as trivial.

    My idea of trivial with a Mary Sue on an ideal run on this scenario is Saito. He can kill it in five orders reliably; 4 or less if he's lucky or Superior infiltrates.

    Infiltrate in HD
    1. Move-Move (as a token)
    2. Move-smoke
    3. Move- Melee (MA4)
    4. Melee (MA4)
    5. Melee (MA4)
    Again, planting d-charges in Looting and Sabotage is NOT efficient, but it would help by marginally leveling the playing field for some of the factions that struggle with this scenario. IMO it doesn't "fix" this scenario, but it helps it be a little less exclusionary.
     
    #14 jfunkd, Dec 20, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2019
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  15. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Well-Known Member

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    Pano doesnt have smoke so it is already not that trivial
    Perseus doesnt have eclipse; Uberfall is indeed the best choice for the mission in either nomads or bakunin. Both are DA so it is not guaranteed to damage console as easily as AP+EXP d-charge does. More rolls - more chances to fail.

    Varuna has Montesa specifically included in sectorial for that mission - but in practice Patsy in a fireteam with B bonus hits it on turn 2 or 3.
    MRRF indeed needs a CC specialist but it is a discontinued army anyway.
     
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  16. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    If you could plant A-Charges, Infiltrating marker state trooper with D-Charges would just trivialize the mission.

    First order: Move-Move
    Second order: Move-Plant

    You could do this with 2-3 models. Then you detonate. No rolls needed, 5 points.

    There is def room for improvement on the mission, but I’m D-Charges being able to be used in deployable mode is one of the way to make that mission better.
     
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  17. jfunkd

    jfunkd Rebel Myrmidon Graffiti Artist
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    How is this even close to what some factions can do with CC units? Your "first and second order" example is misleading as best because it's only part of the order sequence necessary to make this happen.

    The d-charge unit is typically not self sufficient to lay smoke cover, or clear out defenses.

    Each d-charge takes 2 orders to plant an detonate.

    D-charges are Disposable (3).

    It takes 4 D-charges to reliably kill the AC/2.

    I challenge anyone to come up with a scenario where d-charges even comes close to being as efficient as what melee units can do already in L&S. I won't comment again until someone rises to that challenge.
     
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  18. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    You don't need smoke. You can just sacrifice these units to plant their D-Charges. Marker states let's you just Move-Move on the first order, and you can Move-Plant on the second order.

    I'm just showing that you can make some skew lists that trivialises the scenario in which D-Charged (deployable) are a problem.

    You just move your camo markers, you could even coordinated. They all plant D-Charges, if any survive, they plant more. Then you can just soak orders on other troopers that are in your DZ in later turns to just chain detonate.

    There are no CC troopers disposable enough that can reach the AC2 and threaten that much damage in 2 orders. They mostly all need to be base to base with the AC2 for a couple of orders, so they'd need some smoke coverage, and you can't just drop 2-4 of them from the middle of the table and plant 2-4 d-charges in 2 coordinated orders.
     
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  19. SpectralOwl

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    Certainly no more than the Ninja variants or Fidays already do. I for one would appreciate not wasting half my limited-ammo shots from my Machinist who has walked across the whole midfield, while Saito or a handful of Fidays can start within a Short Skill of the AC2 swinging all week under cover of smoke with auto-hit, infinite-ammo swords. I've had the pleasure of playing my NCA against an opponent's OSS in this mission and it featured the slowest objective play I have ever seen in this game since both factions can only use TAGs, really mediocre Infiltrators and D-Charges to score. No other mission has such severe faction imbalances, and reliable D-Charges would be a decent patch until the scenario can be remade or N4 changes the playing field.
     
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  20. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    A point worth remembering with the infiltrating D-Charger (say a Prowler) is that you do not need to use that unit to detonate the D-Charge. Any other D-charge carrying unit can safely detonate even if the placer is sacrificed to drop the charge on the unit. It doesn't even have to be the same turn as you can't remove them once placed as they don't have profiles (Deployable Weapons states they can be targeted, but nothing in D-Charges says anything about markers)