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Why are YJ the sole human bad guys?

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Dichotomedes, Feb 18, 2019.

  1. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Interesting that in this image it portrays the Triads as being almost benevolent, with no mention of the Imperial Service. If the Imperial Service is the enemy of these community-minded fellows, I guess they're villains?

    @Section9 already said it, but they actually seem to. And it seems to be their main goal, to the detriment of law enforcement or social cohesion.

    Considering the Yuandun seem to be the Emperor's most favored unit, it seems quite the opposite - which is one of the things that put people off around Uprising time.

    Yes, that's a general problem with YJ - the faction seems to have been created with the goal of making other factions look good.
     
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  2. Solodice

    Solodice Freshly Squeezed Troll

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    It's an insulation tactic. Becoming the friend of the community makes it harder for them to turn on you and creates sympathy. Which in turn makes it harder for the police and the IS to employ harsher tactics. If they were to operate clandestinely then there is no insulation.

    They might be community-minded fellows but they still peddle drugs, extort businesses and people, run black markets, launder money, etc. They're still an organized crime group who have a public friendly image to help them operate in Yu Jing's authoritarian environment. One man's gangster is another man's community leader.
     
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  3. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I'm very familiar with the idea, especially as it was/is practiced by ethnic gangs in the US.

    Sure, but the blurb there doesn't talk about that at all - by implication casting the legitimate YJ government in a bad light, and those operating against its laws positively.
     
  4. atomicfryingpan

    atomicfryingpan Well-Known Member

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    @Hecaton I think you're reaching tbh. The yuanduan are barely mentioned at all in the fluff and uprising level tragedies dont seem to be their go to way of operating. Are there any examples outside of the uprising book that would show that this is the norm?
     
    #64 atomicfryingpan, Feb 21, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2019
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  5. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    The whole Treason event. There are others.
     
  6. Solodice

    Solodice Freshly Squeezed Troll

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    It's key to understand how and why the Triads are still around and do what they do:

    "The resolution of the Triad War, however, was as quiet as its beginning. In a show of realpolitik, the new bossmen realised the true goal of the Emperor: It had never been to eliminate the Triads entirely. Such a thing would be impossible, for the Triads were entwined into the very fabric of Yu Jing society. He simply wanted them to resume the invisible— and tolerable—presence they had once possessed. One by one, the Triad societies swore oaths to the Emperor and vanished back into the underworld." (RPG Corebook)

    They're isolated so deep that eradicating them all isn't going to happen. Instead, they would go back to doing what they did, and as long as they don't overstep their bounds (like the Golden Dagger Society) then they would be fine. It's the devil the YJ government lives with.
     
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  7. atomicfryingpan

    atomicfryingpan Well-Known Member

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    Treason I believe is what introduced us to the yuan duan so I wouldn't count that to be honest as that's still very much part of the uprising fluff. I mean the only thing I can think of is when reading about some of the Japanese soldiers you'd hear about how Chinese officers were more likely to send Japanese units on more dangerous missions basically. That's a far cry away from the yuanduan/treason/uprising fluff imo. What other examples were you thinking about that paints YJ as the we commit atrocities most of the time faction?
     
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  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    That's fine, but it's not super relevant to what I was saying.
     
  9. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Well the Wotan fluff is definitely up there. And saying "Uprising and Treason don't count" is pretty disingenuous, since that's what most people are complaining about in this context. Part of the issue people have with the fluff is YJ seemingly increasingly flanderized into the "incompetent Saturday morning cartoon villain" faction.
     
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  10. atomicfryingpan

    atomicfryingpan Well-Known Member

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    I was saying that the yuanduan and uprising stuff seems to be the exception and not the rule. So that's why I'm saying it doesn't count. You haven't refuted my point. If in the previous books like n3 or human sphere or campaign paradiso there were similar actions going on then yeah I'd concede that I'm wrong and that YJ is the cartoonishly evil bad guy. It doesn't come across like that in the fluff to me. Yeah the uprising and yuanduan stuff is bad but if that was the norm I'd imagine all the yu jing citizens would either be terrified and living in work camps or completely fine with it so must be pretty evil. I dont think either of those are how YJ is portrayed.

    I don't remember the wotan fluff off the top of my head, what was the gist of what happened with YJ?
     
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  11. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Considering it's like... at least 50% of the fluff on the YJ nation that's been published by CB, it's enough to establish a rule all its own. And even if it were a small part, it'd still be worth pointing out as incongruous.

    As long as you take the tack that actually presenting evidence that would refute it is out of bounds, you'll continue to think that.

    That's because you're discounting the fluff that presents it that way, because it presents it that way.

    And that's exactly the problem with Uprising - it portrays it as the norm. The Emperor is even portrayed as an enthusiastic supporter of the Yuandun - so they're the standard, anyone not doing things their way is in opposition to Yu Jing, it seems.


    Don't mistake wishes for truth.


    YJ blew up a space station with a bunch of JSA troops on it, seemingly in spite of the way players were trying to create the narrative. Ariadna gets the Buran initiative, YJ gets... enforced commission of war crimes.
     
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  12. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    General gist was Yu Jing high command went full retard and blew up a bunch of their own troops, mostly Japanese. The players were not trying to do this.

    Basically it comes across as CB railroading the campaign fluff requiring Yu Jing to be a bunch of incompetent idiots and nuke their own troops in a careless, racist manner, so they could use that as part of the excuse to roll into the equally awful Uprising fluff.

    Gutier writing god awful fluff isn't anything new, although I'm sure he considers his hamfisted attempts to foreshadow and link Wotan into Uprising as a literary masterpiece. :laughing:
     
    #72 Triumph, Feb 21, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2019
  13. atomicfryingpan

    atomicfryingpan Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if uprising/treason counts as 50% of the fluff. N3, human sphere, paradiso, 3rd offensive, and the rpg stuff probably made up more than 50%. If your arguement was I'm worried that is seems like YJ is turning into the incompetent Saturday cartoon cillian and here's why. Then you could pull out the uprising fluff and stuff and have a solid argument.Though I'm arguing that those events are more likely to be seen as a dark spot on yu jings history rather than just another Saturday. Saying that yu jing is becoming x is different than yu jing is x. I'm basing my arguement against the notion that yu jing is evil and the bad guys because they regularly commit atrocities.

    Was the space station being taken over by the combined army? If so I think I remember some that. One of the downsides of the campaigns is I think the narrative is already pretty much determined and we don't as much effect as some people think.
     
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  14. Solodice

    Solodice Freshly Squeezed Troll

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    Then I'm curious to see what you are getting at anyways.

    To me (I'm a simpleton to you... like most others you treat on here, I know) the Triad have ingrained themselves to the point that they don't detract from the legitimate power of the YJ government. They are a part of the system. One part YJ doesn't like but they are there and tolerated. The benevolence of the group is partly for their own sake and at the same time they actually do provide some use to the community. Not all of YJ is hunky dory and groups/communities have slipped through the cracks where the Triad have stepped up in places the YJ gov has neglected (nothing new for any government).

    No, I'm not a fan of all of YJs fluff like the evil mustache twirling bullshit with Yuanduan or the complete idiot ball mess that is Uprising. It's boring and trope and I've already voiced my displeasure on it. However, I don't see the issue with the Triad here.
     
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  15. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    In terms of fluff that relates to YJ specifically, yes it is. And the rpg books aren't published by CB and aren't part of the presentation of the wargame.

    Considering the reigning Emperor is shown as being all aboard the war crimes train I think there's strong evidence that you're wrong. We'll have to wait for more characterizations of YJ in the future books to see the overall direction it's taking, but considering that YJ is the only faction to canonically lose important named characters to the CA, lose a sectorial to independence, and is portrayed the way they are, they seem to be the jobber faction.

    With very little basis for doing so.

    I don't know what faction was about to take it over. It was definitely portrayed as a "don't worry, we're only killing Japanese, they aren't real people" kind of moment.

    The Buran Initiative stuff implies that the players can sometimes have a significant impact - just not when it's YJ players attempting to not commit atrocities.
     
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  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Well, the issue is that the Triads and their crimes are portrayed as part of the justification for the existence of the IS in its current form. If you portray the Triads positively and the IS as a bunch of SS wannabees, then basically you're presenting the existence of the IS as something that's not even justified, and a nation that supports them as complicit in their crimes.
     
  17. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    Speaking purely as a matter of argument, Hecaton, you are assuming Triads never changed

    LLore is that Triads were getting out of hand and did all kinds of nasty stuff. IS was formed to counter them, and finally Triads were defeated and they swore an oath of loyalty. Now they are behaving nicely.

    Don't make a mistake of assuming behaviour/nature of a person or organisation is/was always the same.
     
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  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Sure, but the Imperial Service still exists and still works against the friendly neighborhood Triads. And commits war crimes.
     
  19. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    They still need to be kept in line and made sure they don't overstep their bounds.

    I think you are missing a bigger point, which is, why are Triads doing the work (helping during tough times, emergencies, etc) that a state is supposed to do? Yu Jing state doesn't come off well in these comparisons no matter what :-/
     
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    If the Triads are forced to have ethics, then there may be a need for IS to protect society and the Triads with ethics from Mafia-style organisations without ethics.

    It's been seen in both US and EU where local crime syndicates simply fold when external syndicates come in and simply do not have moral blockers like "don't flay their neighbors as a warning".

    So if Aleph and Pan-O are funding organizations like Tatenokai or worse in an effort to topple the Triads and destabilize the overbearing Yu Jing judicial system, then IS is needed to make sure OTHER organizations don't come in and go way out of hand.