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Which states pass on from TAG to Pilot?

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by daszul, Jun 21, 2019.

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  1. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Thanks.
    Implications are not rules. There is a connection between Doctor and Servant. There is a connection between a trooper and their transmuted profile. The game is full of connections. But we should never assume other rules function differently because of those connections.

    We can only follow the instructions the rules tell us to follow. If a rule represents a connection between two troopers, so be it. It's rather difficult not to imply a connection when a rule affecting one trooper affects another.

    So those examples you've shown about the Pilot are just rules that tell us to do certain things under certain conditions. Nothing more.
    Exactly. If CB wanted TAG+Pilot to be treated as only one trooper that share effects at all or specific times, they needed to provide rules explaining how this works.
    You're right, there are inconsistencies and unclear rules. But I try to never consciously alter what a previous RAW means to accommodate another rule that doesn't appear to fit. I simply tally up all the valid meanings of each rule and choose the most reasonable combination among them.
    Maybe I wasn't explicit. The Fraacta or Su Jian are troopers because the are represented by or have a game element with a troop profile etc. Changing the miniature that represents them or changing the profile they use does not necessarily make them a different trooper.

    A TAG has an alternative Troop Profile it can activate. After the Pilot Dismounts the result is an alternative active troop profile on the table represented by a different miniature (game element). This meets the criteria of a trooper on it's own. So without rules telling us otherwise, I'd play it as such.

    I certainly feel the rules for TAG+ Pilot need a rewrite. Manned+Pilot skills don't function very well IMO. I was going to explain the issues with the current setup but there are a few ways to look at it. So I won't bother. Admitting it has more than one valid interpretation and needs a rewrite is enough for me.
     
    #61 Ginrei, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
  2. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    I know, I was using reduction to the absurd there to prove my point about that definition. In that trooper definition you need to meet all the criteria, if you break one (changing the profile), then you are a different trooper. That definition doesn't support a trooper with 2 profiles at all.
    So it doesn't matter if the profiles are sucesive or coexists, if we follow that trooper definition, change the profile, change the trooper. Which if we nest with the states definition affecting troopers would mean that the states would get eliminated. So as we know that doesn't work like that in other multiprofile troopers, make that definition unreliable for the TAG case.

    But yep, without more rulings there is no way to know what is the intended behaviour here.
     
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  3. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I liked your list of the facts but stating them as "Things we know for sure", only to include an entry as "seem to assume" is problematic in my view.
    All states are not shared according to the RAW. All states are shared according to your interpretation. An interpretation we disagree on. But I get it, from your point of view they are shared and you disagree with my interpretation that they are not. I can't really add any new facts to that discussion.

    On the subject of which profile or trooper is activated during a skill declaration... I'm simply of the mind that its not clear in the slightest and either interpretation is valid.
    Agreed.
     
  4. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Come on man! You are relentless XD.
    That list were my assumptions for that reasoning, the "seem to assume" is the weakest link on that list but the writter really does it and i'm not going further than that.

    That is the end of my own reading of these rules making the assumptions I did. I'm not claiming that how that works, but it's the rulling i'll use until this get officially clarified because is what makes the most sense to me. In a pinch it's: Both profiles share most states with the exception of these creating semingly unitended mechanic, the pilot V:NVI and the illegal prone TAG.
     
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  5. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I am relentless... for better or worse.
     
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  6. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    As this thread seem dead now. Could we add these question to the unanswered question thread please? @Arkhos94

    Q What happens when a Pilot unmount his manned TAG while the TAG is Targeted and Isolated
    1) The pilot is also Targeted and Isolated because both are the same trooper.
    2) The pilot counts as a different trooper so it's not targeted, nor isolated.

    Q What happens to an unmounted Pilot away from his manned TAG when the TAG is affected by E/M ammo?
    1) The Pilot also suffers the effects of the E/M ammo (IMM-2 and ISO) because both are the same trooper. Using a Engineer to cancel the states from the Pilot would also cancel them from the TAG and viceversa.
    2) The Pilot is not affected as it counts as a different trooper while in the table. An Engineer would only cancel states from the miniature he is in b2b, Pilot or TAG.
    3) The Pilot is not affected for other reasons.

    Q What happens if an unmounted Pilot enters in the uncouncious state?
    1) Both the TAG and the Pilot are the same trooper so the Unconscious state affect both, the unconscious state is regulated in manned so an unconscious TAG may keep still activating his Pilot but it cannot mount or activate the TAG troop profile while unconscious.
    2) As the TAG and the Pilot profile have separate W/STR values, each one have its own unconscious state, an unconscious Pilot must follow all the unconscious rules and cannot be activated unless it has V:NWI or any similar ability.

    Q When you decide to mount/unmount a manned TAG in the step 3 of the order expenditure sequence, are both profiles activated or just the one used in that order?
    1) Yes, you must activate both profiles but only the new profile is the one that count as activated in the ARO phase. Mount would be: TAG activate and declare Movement (dismount), the pilot is placed in B2B with the TAG and moves, the TAG counts as never activated.
    2) No, the only profile that activate is the new profile. Mount would be: Declare a Movement (dismount) using the pilot profile, the pilot is placed in B2B with the TAG and moves, the TAG is never activated.
     
    #66 Ogid, Jul 2, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2019
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  7. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Added to the list
     
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  8. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    The last question isn't in doubt, as I've explained several times the only way the rules work is 1. 2 simply can't work (you're required to declare a short skill before activating the trooper).

    Everyone else has just been ignoring the conversation because we largely ignore Ginrei and CBF dealing with it.
     
  9. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    I have doubts about this one to be honest. You can declare the action and say you are going to use the pilot profile, and also we have this FAQ that it's not 100% clear about it (it's clear the TAG get no ARO when dismounts but not about if it's activated or not, which may be important depending on how the states are handled and with the possession interaction).
    Q: When Mounting or Dismounting, which profile is activated?
    A: The new Troop Profile is the one that is activated for the entire Order sequence. The other profile does not count as having been activated.
    I think checking never hurts.
     
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  10. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    You can't declare Move (Dismount) until after the TAG has been activated. It's just that simple.

    It adds confusion where there really isn't any. Dont get me wrong my default position is 'just ask', but there's a point where the valuable questions get lost in the noise.
     
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  11. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Really? Are you unable to stick to the facts or the arguments presented? Do you want me to post my opinion about you here? Is it necessary to the discussion? I do have some interesting thoughts I could share. I can even pretend the community as a whole shares my opinion.

    You are not the authority on what's valuable. You don't get to decide what rule interactions need clarifying and which do not. If I'm going into a game with intent to win and prizes are on the line (not that it should matter), I have every right to know how these interactions are officially going to be ruled.

    It's not that simple no matter how superior or correct you think you are. You get things wrong, that's a fact. So ignore me if you want, because I don't need your opinion or thoughts either. I only need official answers but I'm happy to discuss the topic with others who are more open minded than you. The rule states what trooper is active during the entire order. It also states the other profile doesn't count as being activated. It's very reasonable to assume this pertains to the initial declaration/activation itself.

    It's not my fault the game has so many interactions that need clarifying. I suggest sticking to your default position of 'just ask', rather than trying to be the judge of what's valuable to ask and what isn't.
     
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  12. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    Could you expand on this one, and point out what's not covered by the FAQ?
     
  13. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Sure!
    The FAQ says that when mounting/unmounting new one profile is the only one that activates, so the other trigger no ARO, but it also says that the other "count as" not being activated. This could lead to 2 possible sequences (being the numbers the steps of the order expenditure sequence):

    1) A player declare that the TAG is going to be activated by that order
    2) Player remove order
    3 A) Declare Move (Dismount) using the pilot profile, this places the pilot model in b2b with the TAG and let you move the pilot without activating the TAG profile (so no ARO versus the TAG miniature), any model that can see the pilot can declare an ARO versus him.
    -or-
    3 B) Activate TAG profile, declare Move(Dismount) with the TAG profile, that places the Pilot in b2b and switches to the Pilot profile; you then move the pilot profile. The TAG profile count as not being activated. The TAG profile (and miniature) doesn't trigger any ARO.

    The mount sequence would be (with the pilot in b2b)
    3 A) Declare Move (mount) using the TAG profile, this removes from the table the pilot model in b2b with the TAG and let you move the TAG miniature without activating the Pilot profile; any model that can see the TAG miniature can declare an ARO versus him.
    3 B) Activate Pilot profile, declare Move(Mount) with the Pilot profile, that removes from the table the Pilot in b2b and switches to the TAG profile; you then move the TAG profile; any model that can see the TAG miniature can declare an ARO versus him.

    To be fair this is a pretty nit-picking one. I think the right sequence is the 3A, @inane.imp thinks is the 3B.
     
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  14. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    There's debate about the sequence of events when performing a Mount/Dismount within the O.E.S. This will have a baring on what game states are relevant or AROs available.

    The FAQ explicitly says "for the entire Order sequence". That includes "step 1: Activation". So if a Pilot Dismounts their TAG, this means no ARO's can be made against the TAG as it was never activated (backed up again by the FAQ). It should also mean no game states on the TAG affect the Pilots Order to Dismount.
     
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  15. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    @Ogid thanks, but I’m still not seeing the distinction. In all those options, you only get to react to the ‘new’ profile.
     
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  16. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    I think 3A vs 3B is irrelevant to discussing what profile activates.

    I think at 1.

    "Activation: The Active Player declares which trooper will activate."

    This activates the Trooper. What is the Trooper at this time: it is a TAG. So the TAG activates.

    Remember: declaring a Short Skill doesn't activate things declaring an Order or ARO does.

    When you declare the Order (step 1) you only have the TAG on the table. This is why the FAQ says that 'the [TAG profile] does not count as being activated during the order'.

    At which point any difference between 3A and 3B is moot as the difference only matters IF (while the Pilot is inside the TAG) the TAG gets IMM'd and the Pilot doesn't. But nobody argues that the Pilot doesn't get IMM'd at the same time as the TAG when it hasn't left the TAG. At that point there is only 'the Trooper'.
     
  17. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    It's about whether you can activate a Possessed TAG (because the Pilot isn't Possessed), spend a Regular Order on an ISO'd TAG (because maybe the Pilot isn't ISO'd) or declare Move(Dismount) with a IMM TAG (because maybe the Pilot isn't IMM'd).

    So if you assume a Pilot and a TAG do not share states, you can:

    1. I activate the Pilot
    2. I spend an order on the Pilot
    3. The Pilot declares Move (Dismount)
     
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  18. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    You're welcome! Right now gameplay-wise have very limited impact, that why I said it's a pretty nit-picking one. It's more to know what's exactly the intended behaviour. But it could make a difference in some niche interactions with effects:
    For example, with the A you cannot activate the pilot profile when possessed, with B it could be argued that a Move(Dismount) eject the pilot even if you cannot control it after (I know that doesn't work like that). Or if the Pilot doesn't share the states with the TAG, the option B would let you mount a isolated TAG while the option A won't.
     
  19. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    mmm, I'm pretty sure that the 1 doesn't trigger any ARO; you would trigger AROs when declaring the action in the step 3, that's why I think you can get away without activating the TAG...
     
  20. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Going by the FAQ for Engaged, no you can’t do any of those things.

    Q: During a CC Combat, can a trooper Dismount from his TAG, Vehicle or Motorcycle?
    A:
    No. When a trooper is in Engaged state at the start of the Order they can only declare CC Attack, Coup de Grâce, Dodge and those Skills which specify that they can be used in CC Combat or in the Engaged state, such as Reset.

    So you can only declare Move (and therefore Dismount) if the TAG can - with the explicitly-stated exception of while Unconscious for Pilots.
     
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