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Which states pass on from TAG to Pilot?

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by daszul, Jun 21, 2019.

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  1. JoKeR

    JoKeR HAWZA Instructor
    Warcor

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    I think you made a mistake, cause
    • When the Possessed trooper is activated by the player who induced the possession, he must use the Possessed Trooper profile instead of his own.
    so as i see it - you cant use Pilot profile, only POS one of the TAG.
     
  2. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. It gets grey as to why you can't do it: I see that as valid but gamebreaking so it can't be done.

    Ultimately however you read it the answer is no.
     
  3. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    The other issue is that Dismounting the Pilot from a Possessed TAG requires activating an enemy model.
     
  4. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    @ijw and @JoKeR nailed it. You think that you can do it for the secuence you explained before:

    In your sequence you activate the TAG profile (in this case the possessed TAG profile) and use the move skill with the TAG profile; and that would expel the pilot and then you'd switch to that profile. Using your sequence you could expel it (but not using the pilot profile tho)

    The sequence I propose was this:
    Using this one you must activate the pilot profile to place it in the table. Something forbiden by the Possession rules.
     
  5. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Take in count that both the pilot and the TAG are the same model, so by default effects will affect both unless we are told otherwise.
    The first bullet point talks about operators, operators are different to pilot; that mechanic is closer to the transmutation rule than to the pilot rule. The first bullet is saying that when you are going to use your secondary profile you "cleanse" almost all states, so without that line the operator would "inherit" the TAG states.
    The second and third one talk about a rule in 2 different models, the engineer and its G:Sync aren't 2 part of the same profile but 2 totally different units that works together thanks to the G:Sync rule.

    In fact the manned, pilot rule and its faqs talk about states or their consequences not being shared:
     
  6. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Where is that defined?
    Those words that are not there. There is no mention of a cleanse during the ejection process. There isn't even a mention this has anything to do with the Ejection process at all. The rule is very explicit. "Players do not apply any game states of the TAG to the Operator."

    I've already established the default position for the game is that states do not transfer from one trooper/target unless explicitly told to do so. That line above backs this up. It tells us when we deviate from that default position. In the absence of such rules for the TAG + PIlot, I don't know why anyone would suggest some effects do transfer to another target and inactive profile.
    Those examples are just to illustrate that when one trooper suffers an effect and it has consequences for another trooper, the rules explicitly tell us to do so. It backs the position that the default stance for the rules is that effects on one target/trooper only affect that one target/trooper unless explicitly told otherwise.

    The FAQ explicitly states when the Pilot enters the Dead state, so does the TAG. This is again, an exception. The next line is there to indicate this isn't mutual. When the TAG does, the dismounted Pilot is left.
     
  7. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    In game states
    Remember that tag and pilot are 2 alternative profiles but only 1 trooper.

    That default possition isn't right, see my point above. But let's suppose for a second you were right.
    That line is saying that you do not apply the game states, which implies that by default you will apply them. So your default possition cannot be true because in that case this line wouldn't be there as it would be redundant with the default behaviour.

    In this case you are mixing 2 different tipes of troopers. A G:Sync and its controller aren't the same trooper but they are linked thanks to that rule, that's very different to having 2 profiles of the same trooper in the table. You can't compare these rules.
    In the FAQ case you got it the other way around. That FAQ was there because when the TAG entered in the dead state the pilot had to be removed too (because again they are the same trooper so the death state will affect both); so the real exception here is the pilot staying in the table.
     
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  8. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    And where is that stated? Both Mounted and Dismounted?
    The rule isn't redundant in my interpretation. It's there to point out the exceptions to the norm. The norm is that states are not passed from one trooper to another trooper unless explicitly stated. The exceptions here are Sepsitorize, Retreat, and those which specify.

    The alternative is scary. If all states are shared by default, what else is shared by default. Is a BS attack on a trooper any different than another attack with a state associated to it?
     
  9. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    Well, the rules for Manned state the following:
    • Units with this Special Skill have an alternative Troop Profile with the Pilot Special Skill on it.
    What makes you think that 'alternative Troop Profile' means 'additional Trooper with different profile'?
    Don't you think that 'alternative' means that they are just one troop which can switch between those profiles?
     
  10. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Man... you have this all mix up.
    From manned:
    Check also transmutation:
    You can also check the Symbiont armor rules.
    In all these cases we are talking about 1 model with different profiles, what makes the pilot rule especial is that it let the 2 profiles to stay at the same time in the table. If the pilot rule would say that the pilot is an independent trooper instead of an alternative profile, then it'd work as you are saying.

    If your reading were correct a model would cancel all states when changing profile, an IMM-2 Dog Warrior would "cleanse" the IMM-2 marker after transforming or a Symbiont Armor user would eliminate the Targeted and Isolated state after suffering enough wounds to drop tot he inactive profile for example.

    In that case it would have specified the states that must be passed not the other way around. Check the rules of Transmutation (another alternative profile). They don't say anything, and we know the states are "inherited"

    There are a few differences, the states say it affect models (the whole model, all different alternative profiles); BS attack target the profile they are attacking (but in some cases, like the operators or the dog warriors. If enough wounds are made they are "inherited" from one profile to the other).
    Go through all these rules and read them again, it makes sense.
     
  11. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    Well, in case of Symbiont Armor it can be done,
    but the only time to do so is not when the profiles change because of the number of wounds suffered,
    but when you spend an order to drop to the inactive profile:
    Active Symbiont Armor
    Spending one Short Skill of the Order, the bearer can cancel voluntarily the Active Symbiont Armor state to also cancel the Immobilized (IMM-1 or IMM-2), Isolated, or Targeted states.​
    So this a specific rule that tells us that when you do so, the mentioned states are not inherited.
    This is the exception, so in general the states would be inherited.
     
  12. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Yep, this also points in that direction.


    Btw, how do you play it when the pilot suffer enough wounds to reach the unconscious state? Until now I assumed the pilot had to follow the unconscious rules and cannot do anything; but that state should also be shared with the Pilot and manned have this line:
    So, the pilot is played like it has the V:NWI or is it supposed to be incapacitated when he reach 0 W?
     
  13. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    "Manned" is the skill of the TAG, the Pilot has the "Pilot" skill.

    How I understand this:
    Because the Unconscious state depends on the Wounds suffered,
    and Wounds are not shared between TAG and Pilot,
    the unconscious state is not shared either.

    So while the TAG is unconscious, you can still spend an order to Dismount the Pilot.
    If the TAG is dead (and the pilot still inside), both are removed from the game.
    If the pilot becomes unconscious while outside, you can not spend orders on it.

    (an Evacuation Device changes this, of course)
     
  14. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    That's how I read it before. However this thread made me read carefully these rules again and I've seen a second possibility, so i'm not that sure anymore, my reasons:
    • TAG and Pilot are 2 parts of the same profile, so unless stated otherwise any state would affect both of them.
    • Unconscious is an state, so the model (TAG + Pilot) will get that state as soon as 1 of their profiles gets 0 W and it will affect both profiles, no matter what profile its with 0 W/STR.
    • The manned rule tell us how to handle the unconscious state in this model (TAG cannot act, Pilot operative may unmount and act normally)
    So the RAW seems to be that the pilot works as having V:NWI, however the Uncosncious state would also prevent the pilot to mount the TAG again and the TAG for generating and using orders, even if the TAG have no damage. That sounds quite weird so:
    • Are both profiles supposed to have an independent Unconscious state? How is that handled by the rules?
     
  15. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    The rules explain how a Combi Rifle is functionally different than a weapon alternative such as a Spitfire. Show me where it says being an alternative troop profile is functionally any different than a troop profile? Please don't just quote the rules again which say a Pilot is an alternative profile. That means absolutely nothing on its own.
    I don't think a cleansing is necessarily the outcome. Game states are applied to the trooper, not the troop profile. When a Fraacta or Kotail changes profiles they are still the same trooper. A TAG and Pilot are two different troopers at all times.
    • Trooper. Game element with a Troop Profile, which belongs to the Army List of any player, capable of spending Orders as well as declaring and receiving Attacks.
    When the Fraacta Transmutes it's still the same miniature or game element, only changing its profile. The TAG is a separate game element from the Pilot. The TAG doesn't change it's profile either. It activates another profile. A Profile that has it's own miniature (game element) on the table. It also meets the other criteria for a trooper.

    Now you're both free to believe the RAW means an alternative profile with it's own miniature (game element) isn't it's own trooper. But it's perfectly reasonable to believe the opposite. So until these terms are better defined, we have two reasonable interpretations.
    You should refrain from telling me I have it all mixed up etc. Stick to the facts. I disagree with your opinion but I don't call you confused or whatever.
     
  16. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    Well, I would say they are 2 profiles of the same Unit.
    But the second part is not so clear at all, that's why I opened this thread.
    Do they have independent Wound Points/Structure Points?
    I would say so,
    or the TAG would be Unconscious after the first hit,
    because the Pilot would suffer the wound as well and drop to the unconscious state,
    which after your reading would also affect the TAG.


    How can you apply them to the trooper without applying them to its profile?

    So where is that Pilot trooper while he/she is mounted?
    Are you referring to the miniature?
    So, in your opinion, is the Su-Jian two different troopers all the time as well?
    What about Post-Humans?

    There it is:
    While mounted, you can not spend orders or declare or receive attacks with the pilot.
    Only one of the two profiles can be active at a time, much like the Su-Jian.

    I think we pretty much brought together all rules that might be relevant,
    but there are still many points where we can just agree to disagree.

    To me there are still (too) many holes in the RAW concerning TAGs, Pilots and their states.
     
  17. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Fair points, appologies.
    I'll reprase, I meant that you have to try to get rules in context; in the last few posts you picked up some lines from different rules that applied to models with different mechanics. Comparing those rules out of context is not going to give us a good reading, and I also had a hard time following your points.

    Good points. About the pilot getting hit when the TAG is hit, that's clearly not that way. My point was more that when one of the profiles meet the requisites to get the state, that state would affect both.

    Following strictly the Trooper definition both Pilot and TAG would be different troopers, but at the same time we have these lines:
    Those lines implies that there are a conexion between both profiles state-wise:
    • Pilot order generation based on TAG
    • Pilot survival state based on TAG
    • Make clear they are 2 part of the same profile
    • Pilot may be activated when the TAG is unconscious (hence, the unconscious state affect both)
    • QA: Dead state consequence shared if pilot die.
    I wasn't aware of that trooper definition before, with that in hand I agree there could be more than one reading here and there are also conflincting rules because the trooper definition doesn't take in count the TAG case in which 2 profiles may belong to the same trooper at the same time.

    The problem is that when treating both profiles as totally independent state-wise we also find inconsistencies:
    • You could unmount a Pilot from an IMM TAG (you activate the Pilot profile, who isn't IMM)
    • What happens with the Pilot states when the pilot mount again and is removed from board?
    • Why is specified that the Pilot isn't affected by the Unconscious/Dead state? it should be the default behaviour.
    • Why the models with more than one profile that have to change the profile do inherit states? This would be 2 different troopers according to that trooper definition, and hence they shouldn't inherit them.
    So I have a hard time unraveling the RAW meaning here with these conflicting rules. I think the RAI is in a middle point in between, but until these rules get clarified It's hard to argue in one direction or another.
     
    #57 Ogid, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
  18. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to give this a second try to see how far I can go

    Things we know for sure:
    • Trooper definition is incomplete (doesn't take in count multiprofiles)
    • The default behaviour of multiprofile troopers, chaging miniature (Dog-Warrior/Operator) or not (Symbiont-Armour, Battle-Ravaged...) is inherit the game states, so they behave as if they were a model with only 1 profile by the Trooper definition.
    • Manned state that the Pilot is an alternative profile of the TAG
    • Pilot and Manned wording seem to assume that the states are shared, clarifying the cases that are not (unconscious, dead...)
    So the behaviour of the multiprofile models seem clear (inherit states), the problem is this case in which both are at the same time in the table.
    In this case the Trooper definition is incomplete so we cannot trust it but it's clear that the writter intention is by default sharing the states.

    In any other case of the multiprofile troopers both profiles are treated as the same state-wise, so following this "rules logic" we will get to my other conclusions in this thread:
    However as the trooper definition is incomplete they aren't rock solid.

    Now leap of faith, seeking the probably RAI
    The Pilot of an Unconscious Vehicle or TAG. That line could assume that the Unconscious state is supposed to independent for each profile (which makes sense as they both have their own W / STR attriibute) but there is no rule that specifically tell us this.
    We also have some states that couldn't be shared like the prone (activated for the model in each movement and also the TAG cannot be prone). So there is also a case in which other state is independent.
    So maybe the unconscious is intended to work idependently for each part of the profile and once the Pilot dismounts both profiles start to track their own states. In this case when the Pilot mounts and is removed from board the states could be removed or being "saved" until it dismount again. but again there is no specific rules backing this up.

    I'd go with that all states are shared (RAW) but the unconscious and prone states (what I think it's the RAI) by now. But this mechanic needs to be clarified. There is too much room for alternative readings here.
     
  19. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    Manned (the TAG's skill)
    This Special Skill allows the user to receive Orders from its Order Pool despite being Unconscious. These Orders can only be used to Dismount the Pilot (see General Movement rules, Move), and use the Pilot's Troop Profile.​

    Q: When Mounting or Dismounting, which profile is activated?
    A: The new Troop Profile is the one that is activated for the entire Order sequence. The other profile does not count as having been activated.​

    When the TAG is unconscious while the Pilot is still mounted,
    you are allowed to activate the TAG (despite being unconscious),
    then declare a Move to Dismount the Pilot,
    which then counts as being the activated Profil
    while the TAG counts as not been activated in the first place.

    This has to be this complicated, because you cannot activate the Pilot before it is Dismounted.
     
  20. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    That's a way to see it, however that same QA tells you that the TAG doesn't count as having being activated. I rather see it like this:
    The problem of a move(dismount) with the TAG profile just expel the pilot and then switch to that profile is that it may create a buggy case in which you activate a possessed TAG profile and uses the move(dismount) to expose the Pilot, something that you are not allowed (something you couldn't do with the other sequence). However AFAIK none of these are confirmed.

    But anyway, let's imagine you do need to activate the TAG profile to switch to the pilot. Then rule about the unconscious TAG being able to expel the pilot would be necessary, but not the second part. There is still an inconsistencie there.
     
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