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Which Faction do you hate the most?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by dexterv, Sep 25, 2018.

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Which faction you hate the most?

  1. PanOceania

    13 vote(s)
    5.6%
  2. Yu Jing

    7 vote(s)
    3.0%
  3. Ariadna

    45 vote(s)
    19.4%
  4. Haqqislam (rlly??)

    11 vote(s)
    4.7%
  5. Nomads (if you vote this, you have no soul)

    25 vote(s)
    10.8%
  6. Combined army

    8 vote(s)
    3.4%
  7. ALEPH (<<This, you fools)

    13 vote(s)
    5.6%
  8. Tohaa

    43 vote(s)
    18.5%
  9. NA2

    3 vote(s)
    1.3%
  10. Ultramarines

    59 vote(s)
    25.4%
  11. All but Nomads

    3 vote(s)
    1.3%
  12. Others

    2 vote(s)
    0.9%
  1. Solodice

    Solodice Freshly Squeezed Troll

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    You have it backwards. There should be more of them.

    Exact dates aren't given how long Ariadna was separated but it would be 52 years later AFTER YJ, PanO, Haqq, and the Nomads established themselves to become the Human Sphere when Dawn was recontacted.

    No number is given for how people were on Ariadna (the name of the ship). Many here have given good estimates on how people you'd need to start up a colony. This wasn't just people they sent as well. They had the genetic material (read: eggs and sperm) as well for genetic diversity and probably the ability to create vat babies.
     
  2. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    From the RPG book:

    Dawn: Nearly two centuries after the Project DAWN colony had been lost, it was rediscovered by the PanOceanian scout ship POS Nirriti and, much to the surprise of the rest of the Human
    Sphere, the colonists had survived and even thrived. A conservative people, driven behind defensive walls by the assaults of the native Antipodes, the Ariadnans now strive to stave off the iconoclastic assaults of the advanced societies they have fallen out of step with.

    At a ~2% rate of growth over 200years that's 162K on the Ariadna.

    At ~2.5% it's 61k original settlers.

    And that's disregarding any major population shocks, like say continuous warfare against a numerically superior species.
     
  3. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
    Warcor

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    Yeah.

    Heaps of people have been whining about it being too low, but I'm with you. It's actually strangely high (especially given the high mortality rate we are told is common on Dawn).
     
  4. laundreu

    laundreu Member

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    Honestly it's more like it feels way too low for a major or even minor power. 8 million is chump change, there's no way they could have resisted PanO and Yu Jing invaders long enough to get O12 down on their side. If the fluff had it as 'PanO and Yu Jing fought each other so much that O12 (under Haqq and Nomad pressure) gave Dawn to the Ariadnans' or something, that'd be one thing, but the Ariadnan armed forces explicitly fought both hyperpowers long enough for O12 to come to the bureaucratic rescue.

    Not to mention, 25 million paleolithic obligate carnivores is ridiculous. Unless the forests of Dawn are made of meat, I cannot see how the Antipodes can maintain those numbers. Humanity's population at that technological level was ~2 million worldwide, and we didn't need meat to survive.
     
  5. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
    Warcor

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    The Antipode numbers can be fine, assuming that Dawn doesn't have a lot of other predator species.

    And neither PanOceania, nor Yu Jing, ever actually invaded Dawn to conquer it.

    Haqqislam and the Nomads got them recognised as a nation too quickly for that to happen, the Commerical Conflicts were explicitly fought over the territory outside Ariadna, on Dawn (well, admittedly "mostly") so Ariadna was never existentially threatened.

    So, yeah, the whole "Ariadna is too small to ever have fought off PanOceania and Yu Jing" is absolutely true. It's a good thing that they never had to.
     
  6. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    It was a good 150 years of no-contact with the rest of Humanity, the Ariadna colony was started about 2050 according to the timeline in the old Bibliotekfiles e-zine.



    2.5% is pretty high, actually. The highest growth rate in the entire world in 2017 was South Sudan, at 3.83%, and that basically puts more than half the population under 16 years old. That's not conducive to long-term survival, nobody has been alive long enough to learn how to do the complex stuff.

    So the most logical growth rate is about 2%. (Also, humans tend to breed faster when under life-threatening stresses for the men. See the Baby Boom in the US post-WW2).

    We're probably looking at ~500,000 on the Ariadna-colony-ship growing at 2%. Over 150 years, that would get you to a 9.75mil population, and allows a combat fatality rate of about 12%.


    Yeah, but that's a numerically-superior species without ranged weapons. Ranged weapons are an immense equalizer in a fight. See the classic 'High Elves versus Khorne' (or Tau versus Tyranids) battles. Shooters kill off at least half the choppy army before the choppy army gets to fight.




    My problem is that the initial colony needs to be 10,000 people just to sustain Bronze-Age technology. You need a million to sustain 1970s tech, 900k to sustain 1890s tech.

    The population on Ariadna-the-planet is too low because the starting population of the colony is way too small to have maintained 1950s tech, let alone 2020s tech.

    Starting from 1million people on the colony ship, at 2% population growth over 150 years, there should be some 19.5million people on the planet.

    Either that or the Antipodes have killed 60% of the entire population to give us that 8.5mil current population.
     
    ChoTimberwolf likes this.
  7. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
    Warcor

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    Don't forget diseases (alien ones included), natural phenomena, and inter-colony warfare. Plenty of nice ways to keep the populations down over time. Not to mention that these kinds of conditions tend to reduce number of people reaching old-age.

    And you don't need to kill population at a later point, just keep the growth under a higher-than-normal pressure.
     
  8. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    A ~1% growth rate gets you to 8.5million in 200 years.

    My issue is that 1million is impractically large for a colony ship that was supposed to remain in relatively stable connection to Earth.

    Even 50k as the seed colony is pushing the numbers on that.

    So either way, the population on Ariadna is implausibly large because the growth rate is unsustainable given a practical colony ship size.

    Or, the population is too small given how big it would have needed to be to maintain its current level of technology after 200years.
     
    Space Ranger likes this.
  9. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Again, Infinity is only ~175 years from now, and the Ariadna colonization effort landed in about 2050. It's only been ~150 years of separation.

    There was apparently a lot of colonists in cold-sleep, and about a 5% failure rate for revival. (ouch!)

    That dramatically reduces the size of the ship you're talking about, when you only have a couple thousand (or fewer!) people awake for the entire trip and everyone else in cold storage (see also that colony ship in James Cameron's Avatar). Probably all the medics stayed awake, along with a minimum flight crew to keep the ship working, maybe a small contingent of military so that the exploring medics got used to working with them. At the very least, that's how I would have done it.

    We also knew that the atmosphere on Dawn was human-breathable mix, and didn't have any screaming warnings about infectious diseases due to unmanned probes.


    I mean, heck yes, sending 0.1% of the US+EU+Russian population out to start a new colony is an immense undertaking. That's why the US, EU, and Russia suffered an economic collapse when the wormhole to Dawn collapsed!

    But you'd be an epic idiot to not make your first ship carry enough people to make a self-sustaining colony, just in case the second ship didn't make it. Otherwise, you are knowingly sending however many people are on your first ship to their deaths. And the military escorts are not going to let you do that!


    Well, my position is the second, but yes, you're correct. One of those two scenarios is true, and therefore there is a very large problem with population size.
     
  10. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    Most human tanks from 40k are based on ww1 or 2 stuff, suppose some dude was fan of the era, and wrote "big" numbers compared to those. 40k has this weird feeling of technology, where it's both ridiculously advanced and outdated the same time. It's actually the dark ages after the fall of a ridiculously advanced civilization. Like the wars fought with sticks and stones after ww3. In the old time everyone and their mom had an STL, "now" if they find an stl for nail clippers, they worship it.

    Please do the math for lazy people!

    That's basically the essence of grimdark.
     
  11. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
    Warcor

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    Or, the technological differences between now and then in the setting allow for maintenance of a level of industry with a lower population than current models assume.

    Meaning there is no problem at all.
     
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  12. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Handwavium is a hell of a drug ;)

    @Section9 I keep using 200years because that's what the RPG says ('almost 200 years'). All it does is slide the growth rate a few tenths of a percent either way, so I've gone with longest timeline. Shorter timelines require a faster rate of expansion (problematic) or larger seed population (problematic).

    Also, I don't see an issue a non-self sustainable first wave. It's not certain death, it's a risk and probably a lower overall risk than a single ship with a million colonists.
     
  13. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    40k sounds like some big nation who conquered half the world once, ages ago, and now can't even manage to figure out mix taps.
     
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    They all speak English with various British accents and carry a lot of Roman regalia so... yes? :p
     
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  15. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    I like how you use made up bullshit (the fantasy Eldar vs. Khorne or space commies vs Zergs (actually, Tyranids were the original Zergs. But Tyranids are not the original bugs)) to prove a point :D
     
  16. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Again, you're assuming a technological difference from about 20 years from now (given how long it takes to manned-flight-approve tech) allowing a multiple-order-of-magnitude change in population necessary for maintenance of any specific level of technology.


    The military sees a non-sustainable first wave as abandoning people to their deaths. You might be able to convince 10-20 people to take that risk. Good luck convincing thousands of people.

    Or, more to the point, good luck convincing the parents of thousands of people that an initial colony not large enough to sustain itself is a good idea if you cannot evacuate the people there after something goes horribly wrong.


    If you'd prefer, I can go with that scene in Last Samurai when it's charging cavalry and infantry versus gatling guns, that happened several times during the Boshin War. Or perhaps something from the Anglo-Zulu War?

    The Plains Wars in the US actually had the natives pretty well-armed, often better armed than the US Cavalry troopers (natives with Henry or Winchester repeaters, US Cavalry with Trapdoor Springfield single-shots), so that's not a valid comparison.

    Besides, this is a scifi forum, I don't expect to see a lot of historical gamers here.
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    If an eccentric millionaire with a track-record for creating poorly sustainable tech firms is capable of getting hundreds of people to sign up for colonization of Mars several years if not decades before we've got the technology for it, I'm sure the EU and US governments are going to be capable of getting thousands of people to sign up for it when they not only have the technology but also the guaranteed capital to keep the project going even if it would turn unprofitable.

    Also, there's this thing with humanity having these interesting evolutionary traits where we, as individuals, are perfectly capable of making a boat and sailing against the horizon never to return and the people left behind goes "life's shit here, that guy had the right idea, he's probably living the best days of his life right now" and them going off in boats of their own.
    Typically bad for the individuals, but good for the species.
     
  18. kanluwen

    kanluwen Well-Known Member

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    Tyranids actually have had competent shooting units since the outset...
     
  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    And 40k games tend to be skewed in favour of melee (my poor poor 12" range Guardians :( )
     
  20. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    No, it's your fault for bringing a pistol to a lascannon&power sword fight ;P