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Where's Ariadna's TAG

Discussion in 'Ariadna' started by Charbe86, Jun 24, 2018.

  1. cazboab

    cazboab Member (phrasing)

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    You choose not to use the Guijia in favour of full fledged 2w HI, that's a choice you get to make in YuJing, Ariadna doesn't get either side of that choice, so the situation is not similar.
     
  2. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Yes it is. Tohaa or Yu Jing choosing to use the TAG are actively hindering their ability to straight up win the mission, to the point where nobody playing for keeps seriously brings the Gorgos over another Triad. Same deal for the Guijia. Your argument is that when presented with a stupid choice, you should pick the stupid option just because you're able to. Come on now.

    Do you think someone who primarily plays ISS sees Show of Force in the mission pack and says "Gee, wow, this mission is unwinnable better stop using my Su Jians and 8 Kuang Shi so I can have a Guijia that sounds like a good trade."

    Of course not.
     
    #22 Triumph, Jun 25, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
  3. cazboab

    cazboab Member (phrasing)

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    Not, it isn't, my argument is that because you don't like one option you have isn't a reasonable justification for not giving us *any* option.
    Ariadna has almost nothing that would be absolutely better than the Anaconda in the missions that have points that only TAGs can score, but the Anaconda either comes at a 3swc cost *if* the TO allows it, or a requirement to use a sectorial whose models are discontinued. The alternative you suggest is to use HI, but YuJing has a spread of high middle to top tier HI, Ariadna's best HI is lower middle.
    Every other vanilla army has a choice, stupid or not, they have it.
    It's not just limited to the leftover tagine missions, a TAG, even a mediocre one, would go a long way to counter the massive disadvantage limited insertion can throw at ariadna.
    The argument against it is we don't *need* a TAG. I don't need a kebab either, I have bread, jam and peanut butter but sometimes you don't want a PB&J, you want a giant greasy donner even if you know it's not the best option for you...
     
  4. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    To which the point has already been made. Welcome to faction identity. Ariadna is low tech, you're unlikely to get a TAG. You don't need a TAG to compete in ITS, so trying to use ITS as a justification to ramrod one into play isn't a valid argument either.

    The alternative I suggested is not to use HI, it's to use your faction strengths to compete. For Yu Jing, it's their HI. For Ariadna, it's their high order count and mid field skirmishing. Your opponent can start with a TAG on the table, you can start with a large model count already on top of the objectives and defending them.

    Use your existing strengths and identity to play stop wishing for the strengths of other factions. If everyone got everything everyone else had that we'd just have flavours of Space Marines.
     
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  5. andre61

    andre61 Well-Known Member

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    (IMO) There should not be any TAG missions, because it puts Ariadria out of scoring points, unfortunately Ariadria don't have TAG's because it's supposed to be the low tech faction, So! why not give them a low tech TAG?
     
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  6. prophet of doom

    prophet of doom Well-Known Member

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    I think that people should enjoy playing any faction or sectorial they want. Not allowing someone to score maximum points is an unfair disadvantage, because the factions with TAG s simply have one more option to score points. For me, the simple solution is to get rid of the extra points for TAGs next ITS season. CB has sold enough TAGs now and changed the rules well enough to make TAGs worthwile.

    Ariadna does not need to get a TAG. It is fine that they are a low-tech faction that does not have one. It might be cool for Ariadna to get a mini-tank that scores like a TAG but cannot move like one. But I won't love Ariadna less if the faction will never get such a tank.
     
  7. Wombat85

    Wombat85 Well-Known Member

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    Lets be clear, there are only two missions that require a tag. One missions you miss 3 points (A Lot if you are top table) the other you miss 1 point (unlikely to matter). Thats 2 missions out of 22 or 9%. I think crying foul over 10% of missions is a little much, maybe push for not playing those missions or allowing an alternate mission to be played in their stead instead of a redesign of the factions core competencies.
     
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  8. cazboab

    cazboab Member (phrasing)

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    Ariadna is low tech in exchange for more orders, so I'd argue that limited insertion already affects the core competencies, but even if an arbitrary omission is required, allowing the dog warriors to fulfil the tag only objectives solves the problem. Realistically even if CB did give Ariadna a TAG profile in army tomorrow, we'd still have to wait months for the model, so plugging the gap in the missions makes more sense short term.
     
  9. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    This "faction identity" argument is silly. I've been playing Ariadna for years, and there's been the idea of a "low tech" TAG coming out for them since a long time ago. Honestly it seems a bit like the original idea for it may have been turned into what became the Blackjack.

    So now we have a unit with power armor (but not as good as other factions), and all our HI are E/M'able even though they are NOT wearing power armor... The "you're a low tech faction, deal with it" argument doesn't hold water in the least. The "archaic TAG" has been a thing for a long time, in theory.

    This coming from someone who often actively avoids bringing a TAG to missions that have TAG-specific bonuses, btw.
     
    cazboab likes this.
  10. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    If it is the "stupid option" like you say then this is still more like an issue of the Gorgos and Guijia being poorly balanced... IF your statement is even true.
    If I am playing Deadly Dance the Gorgos looks kind of tempting to me. Could be because I am a bad player but maybe having a list that would allow me to farm a bad/new player (ITS is kind of odd) seams like maybe not the worst idea.
     
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  11. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    You will regret the Gorgos the second it gets hit by a HRL or any other source of fire and loses 3 wounds from 1 failed save.

    Alot of TAGs are poorly balanced and are largely undesirable, yes, that's an issue with them. At the same time it doesn't change the fact that many armies when fully optimised already play these missions without TAGs, and arguing that Ariadna is a special case and must have a TAG to compete effectively in ITS doesn't really hold water.
     
  12. cazboab

    cazboab Member (phrasing)

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    Not having the opportunity is different than not using the option, particularly if the work around(loading for bear with HI) is also not available in any real sense, and the trade off is at the whim of the TO, who can flip the switch on limited insertion and remove the advantage of cheap specialists. Note that my preferred solution of dog warriors scoring as tags is still slightly flawed in LI since they're cheap and die far more easily than a TAG in most cases.
    It's not just for ITS though, it's also a missed opportunity for a cool thing. We want the cool thing. A metal gear looking stompy tesium plated kill bot. Currently all the tags smooth and sleek looking, there's an obvious design space available for a walking tank style tag that even the Magriba leaves blank.
     
  13. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I find Limited Insertion not to be a valid concern, it's a joke of a game mode anyway and pretty clearly unbalanced and any TO worth their salt trying to run a serious event won't use it. I know you're going to try and argue about Interplanetario, but again, 2018 Interplanetario is a joke and should not be taken seriously because of the messed up game modes attached to it.
     
  14. cazboab

    cazboab Member (phrasing)

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    Well you're not wrong, but I have a different conclusion: the popularity of LI is very high, which makes it a concern, and it definitely benefits a few factions while utterly screwing others, mostly those who rely on cheaper orders and don't have any stand out 60+ point rambo options...
     
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  15. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    Ariadna has already the blackjack ... It looks like a tag, it feels like a tag, it's just not a tag. They could have a real tag at this point, either the anaconda or why not some tag with a lo-tech attribute ?
     
  16. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Let's be real here LI heavily benefits sectorials running the biggest nastiest pain train core fire teams they can come up with, going first, and killing as much stuff as you can. It's a stupid game mode, agonising over it isn't worth your time.
     
  17. cazboab

    cazboab Member (phrasing)

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    Agonising over being competitive in it isn't worth time, but it's going to keep coming up, and if it's part of the game, then it should be at least a possibility for everyone to make a list without dropping points...

    In a perfect world LI would never have been a thing, in a near perfect world every faction would be at the same advantages and disadvantages in LI, but in the real world we're going to be stuck trying to get things closer to the perfect or near perfect, and there's a lot of ground to cover...
     
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  18. Wombat85

    Wombat85 Well-Known Member

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    Could TAK be the great equalizer in LI for ariadna? Especially the new units that might be coming with it
     
  19. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    I don't have any trouble playing single combat group Ariadna, not sure what you guys are on about with that. But yeah, sure, having linkable Vet Kazaks in TAK might make it easier.
     
  20. MATRAKA14

    MATRAKA14 Well-Known Member

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    Ah! the rm100 so much wasted potential for an awesome mech miniature...





     
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