Specifically, does a Lieutenant stop being a Lieutenant when they enter the Unconscious state? I ask because of Hunting Party, but there may be other relevant scenarios. The reason it's important for Hunting Party is for if I make my enemy's LT Unconscious and then Immobilize/Isolate them. The wording for the Lieutenant skill indicates that a troop is still the LT when Unconscious: Loss of Lieutenant says that there is no LT when the previous LT is Null, which I would say supports the opposite argument: Unconscious states that automatic skills (which Lieutenant is) have no effect at that point, which seems to strongly support the case that the troop stops being LT immediately: The only thing that makes me unsure about relying on the very explicit statement in Unconscious is that it talks about skills having no effect, whereas you can make somebody an LT who doesn't have the Lieutenant skill (in LoL), so maybe being the LT and having the Lieutenant skill aren't exactly the same thing. Or maybe making someone LT gives them the skill.. Not sure.
I’m not sure about this but I think the automatic skill is relevant regarding the lieutenant order generated. I mean the Kuang Shi still generates an order, even if he dies during the impetuous phase, you don’t retroactively remove the the order he generated. I also assume it’s similar to camouflage and mimitism, were the skill automatically works when the unconscious state is removed. So it’s more like, if the lieutenant order was never generated because you don’t meet the conditions—> enter LoL
You can "revive" a KO Lt before your turn ends, and he won't stop being a Lt. You check Loss of Lt at the beginning of your turn, thus being there when we check if the Lt is a new one, or it keeps being the same, I think. Chain of Command also gets activated here IF the other conditions get fulfilled (not deploying a Lt does not allow for the activation of CoC). So, you can get the enemy Unconscious, and then fire at him with a Stun pistol, ADL launcher, or even hacking programs (if the conditions are right, beginning with being in the hacking zone, and then the enemy Lt being a type that can be Isolated or Carbonite'd). So let's say you just rendered Unconscious the enemy Lt, which was a Mobile Brigada. Now you can Stop!/Carbonite him, or fire a Stun Pistol or an Adhesive Launcher, or an Oblivion, and get the point. Heck, you can do that even if you KO'ed the enemy Lt as an ARO, and then on your turn you IMM him!
Being able to revive an unconscious LT doesn't necessarily mean he was still LT while he was unconscious though. Traditionally the only time this was relevant was for LoL/CoC which as you say is determined at the start of the next turn, but the scoring in Hunting Party means we need a more specific definition of when this skill(?) applies.
No, you cannot change the Lt until the check for LoL comes... Think of it the same way as in Decapitation, changing "unconscious" with "IMM 1 or 2, or Isolated".
Agreed, you can't assign a new LT until this point (CoC notwithstanding), but that doesn't affect when the previous LT stopped being an LT. Indeed the wording from Decap indicates that you already don't have an LT by the time you get to the Tactical Phase: This doesn't matter for Decap as the LT going unconscious is the thing that matters, whereas in Hunting Party the important thing is that they go into imm-1/imm-2/isolated while still LT. From FAQ 1.3: Therefore if going unconscious means they are not LT, as the Unconscious description is fairly clear about, immobilising them after this point will have no effect on the scoring, and you'll have to wait until your opponent's next turn before having another chance to hunt down an LT. Actually this isn't just about LT - many specialist skills are automatic skills as well: Chain of Command Paramedic Hacker Specialist Operative I don't have a horse in this race, but unless there's some reason the wording in Unconscious doesn't apply, this would seem to invalidate the tactic of immobilising/isolating any of these unconscious troops for Hunting Party.
i'd be fine with that, fluff-wise, if glueing an unconsious model doesn't give points. no risk no reward!
A model doesn't stop possessing a rule just because that rule or equipment is disabled, Hackers don't stop being hackers (or specialists) when their hacking device is disabled; likewise medics; and likewise lieutenants.
Again, a model who is the LT going Unconscious, then healed by a Doctor, remains being the Lt, and if it didn't use the Lt order, it can use it, so to me the change happens only when "checking if the Lt fulfills one of the conditions that causes LoL, CoC or reinforced command links" (this later category is exclusive for ITS scenarios). So, yeah, glueing a KO Lt BEFORE the enemy checks for LoL gives you the appropiate points. If Lt continuity were checked on more points of a player's turn, then it would go upper than 3 Objective Points.
For the record, doesn't CoC automatically kick in when a Lt enters an Isolated or Null state (ie you don't need to wait for the LoL check)? Same as XO: Lt transfers as soon as the new model/marker is revealed.
Yeah the whole automatic skill thing is a bit confusing, certainly based on this comment by IJW the identity of the current Lieutenant isn't directly related to the Lieutenant skill: http://infinitytheforums.com/forum/...e-lieutenant-automatic-skills/#comment-876195 So the fact that Unconscious make the Lieutenant skill 'have no effect' may be neither here nor there, which presumably is the same for Paramedics etc. As imp points out, CoC kicks in as soon as the LT becomes unconscious. So for Hunting Party, if your opponent had CoC, you couldn't put the LT unconscious and then isolate them for the purpose of scoring, as they would not be the LT at the point you isolated them. @xagroth / @Zewrath , I don't think the use of the LT order really tells us much, I mean the order itself is generated in the Tactical Phase before any of this happens, and can be used by whoever the active LT is at the time - be it the original and still conscious one, a CoC, an XO, or the original who (maybe) stopped being one but was then revived and became LT again. I haven't seen anything explicit in the rules, but I still think the wording in LoL, Decap, and a couple of other places indicates that an unconscious LT is not your LT - to paraphrase, if the previous LT is unconscious, you don't have an LT at that point in time.
Yeah but that's being pedantic to the point were it proves nothing, isn't it? My argument is that the only reason Lt. is a skill, at all, is because the skill is passive and does nothing, it only needs to be active during order generation and checking for LoL. You might TECHNICALLY not have a Lt. in your active phase but it doesn't mean anything because you're past the point were you check for LoL and it doesn't retroactively apply. Or are you suggesting that a Sogarat that got back up again, after losing a shootout, stops being the Lt., momentarily, so now you technically need to appoint a new Lt., AFTER the next round were you will first enter LoL. If that's not what what you're arguing, then may I ask what the purpose of your argument is and what the purpose is for clarifying the "mechanics" behind the rule? Kind Regards.
As for the CoC, it doesn't prove much about the Lt. mechanic. It just so happens that CoC is only capable of activating at that specific point. The player can only activate this Special Skill when the Lieutenant enters the Isolated state or any Null state. It's a special, optional, automatic skill that have a specific requirement. It doesn't have any wording like 'When ever you check for Loss of Lieutenant and your Lieutenant is in a Null State, you may activate this skill, in order to prevent Loss of Lieutenant and become the new Lieutenant'.
The Lieutenant stops been a Lieutenant when somebody else takes his mantle, I am sure this will have to do with some of the tricky missions were LT kills count, I will have to look at them in depth to really answer timing. But I would say as a standard, if the enemy gives a BS attack against your LT and you reveal an executive order Hack Tao as an ARO, the hack Tao is your LT, not your old LT.
