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When do Pilots and their TAG both generate an Order token?

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Ginrei, Jun 23, 2019.

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  1. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I agree. I also think it's important to remember this is a competitive game at times and a players understanding of those 5-10% edge cases can mean the difference between winning and losing.

    There is a lot to calculate during a game of Infinity. The last thing I want to worry about is how a particular situation might be ruled. Even asking during the game if I see potential for it to arise is dangerous. It tips my hand.
     
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  2. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Let me explain myself a bit better. I think that you only need to see the bigger picture.

    You can’t be 100% sure about how a rule that you haven’t written works, you have to make assumptions and work with these; and the best way to make assumptions is comparing your topic with the rest of the rules and see if that it makes sense. If everything matches, then it’s probably working as intended.

    For example in this case, if you check the pilot rules and see that they could generate 2 orders when both are in the table RAW, that’s something very remarkable. You then look further and see some inconsistencies. Both profiles seem to generate 1 order, but when the TAG is unconscious neither do it, and then when the TAG is dead the pilot suddenly starts generating them again?? That’s sounds mess up, especially when no other model generate 2 regular orders under any circumstance and any other “subordinate” state doesn’t generate its own order. So the most probable explanation is that both profiles are intended to only generate 1 order (using the TAG as the main profile) but the wording wasn’t accurate.

    With that background you go and post your thread. The community clearly back up “the most probable explanation”; and you also have 2 mods involved with the rules saying that effectively this works like this. At this point you should assume this as the RAI; discussing that the RAI is that the pilot generates his own order against all odds is just going to tilt people, and you want to avoid that at all cost if you plan to have a healthy RAW discussion later.

    Take in count that is very unlikely that moderators take part in RAW discussions about mess up rules. Their posts are used as “soft rullings” by the community; so when the RAI is cristal clear like this case, they will defend it. That doesn’t mean they don’t see it (as the ijw response shows), but don’t expect them to back up your claims. Again, you don’t want to engage in these discussions if you are interested in discussing the RAW.

    This is generally happens for a misunderstanding. If you want a discussion about strictly RAW you must make it very clear because other players will see this as you trying to build your cause to “cheat” in games; and they will go apeshit to defend the rules… (And that drives to a thread like this, 4 pages of useless back and forth about "we all know how the RAI works"… In the second page I was willing to discuss the RAW, but now I’m just fed up of this pointless thread.)
    You need to make them understand that you are only checking the rules from a RAW pow with users willing to do that just for fun, at that point just don’t engage anyone that uses RAI argument, just politely point that’s not the subject of the discussion and keep discussing with the ones that uses the rules to back up their claims.

    That’s just wrong. Unless you are from CB (or have worked in the rules), everyone have same weight here, it’s how you argument what counts.
     
  3. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    @meikyoushisui how could order expenditure be written better ?

    @Ogid @ijw and myself are much more involved in rules than just knowing CB, I would rate @ijw answers almost as official as made from a CB FAQ, yes there are a few instances were CB answeres differed from what @ijw said but most were because he campaigned to be changed.

    Please do understand regardless of whether we agree or not with what is been said, we cannot and should not give any answer other than the official as it is written and is intended, giving personal opinions or how we should think it should be played is an invitation to disaster, if we feel or agree something needs to be changed, it will be changed in an official manner.
     
  4. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    @psychoticstorm It's less order expenditure and more the general timing of rule applications within the sequence. For example, do you remember a few months ago when we (not you and me personally, but people on this subforum) debated what happened in f2f of Protheion vs. BS Attack, if the BS attack's results would kill the Protheion unit? It also would solve a lot of issues/confusion related to Explode and Explode: LX's different timings if the rules were more clear about when each step happened. There was also the big debate about what AROs hackers can declare when someone declares AD4 with Explode LX as well. If the rules were more clear about when they occurred in the order expenditure sequence, a lot of these questions/debates would be answered/settled pretty quickly.
     
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  5. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    I didn’t mean otherwise. In fact, it’s great to have you guys around, and it’s totally understandable that you shouldn’t engage in these RAW topics. I just hope we will need you less and less in the future! ;)

    My point was more about how to create a healthy and useful thread around the wording versus the intent of the rules without starting a riot in this forum.
     
  6. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    @meikyoushisui I see thanks.

    @Ogid Sorry, I must have misunderstood what I read, apologies.
     
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  7. Bobman

    Bobman MERC
    Warcor

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    One unit two profiles, one unit two profiles. I didn't read the whole post as its boring. Your example is simple trying to be awkward. Yay for you.
     
  8. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    No worries, it's all right :ok_hand:
     
  9. SmaggTheSmug

    SmaggTheSmug Well-Known Member

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    Ok, so it seems to work like this:
    • When mounted, the TAG profile is used and it is the one generating Order.
    • After Dismounting the alternate troop profile is used (Pilot) and the Pilot starts generating the Order. The TAG becomes a big paperweight.
    • However if the TAG becomes Unconscious the Order is lost, even if the Pilot is still alive.
    • Expel hacking program clarifies that expelling a Pilot does not remove the Order.
    Seems pretty cut and dry to me, if a bit counter-intuitive.
     
  10. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

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    No, please see the previous page:

     
  11. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

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    Well, until you read your own reply perhaps.
    Transparent attempt at threadcrap noted.

    I don't think rules-lawyering was the verb @Arkhos94 had in mind.

    You've asserted that, not shown it. Troopers generate orders, not profiles.
    No, this thread is a clear indication that people know what the rules mean, not that the rules are deemed perfect.
     
    #131 Dragonstriker, Jun 26, 2019
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 26, 2019
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  12. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I have shown it. Explain to me how the rules differentiate between a Transmuted trooper using their alternative profile and a TAG using their alternative profile? Whatever overarching rules logic you apply to the Pilot profile must apply to the Transmuted profile.

    But at this stage I'd prefer @psychoticstorm to close the thread. Any meaningful discussion seems to have already taken place.
     
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