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When do Pilots and their TAG both generate an Order token?

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Ginrei, Jun 23, 2019.

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  1. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    It might not be as clear as it could be, but it’s what we have right now.

    As for answering the question, if you do not find either stance to be clear enough, I suggest checking your the TO of your tournament, as the final decision will be theirs for the event.

    I’d plan around them only generating a single order as I’d be very surprised to see a TO rule it the other way.

    Until then, I suggest that you post in a suggestion thread as the core of the problem seems to be about clarity of the rule rather than how the rule works!
     
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  2. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Ok, to be fair here @Ginrei got a good point, other "subordinate" states like the G:Sync/Marionette/Servant... clearly states that these trooper doesn't generate an order. The other multiprofiles like the Su jian or the Dog-Warriors don't do it and both generates an order but they won't coexist at the same time.

    The rule about the pilot not generating an order when the TAG is out really doesn't say anything about the pilot not generating it when the TAG is opperative. If we go to the order count we got this:
    When we go to the trooper profile page we got this: http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Unit_Profile
    The order are counted by profiles and the TAG would have 2 profiles in the table...

    I mean, clearly the pilot generating the order at the same time than the TAG is not an intended mechanic but it could be read like that (but I won't risk my TAG leaving the pilot outside during my reactive phase anyway). This can be rulled lawyered as @Ginrei is showing.
    The pilot rule could change the line saying that the pilot of an "unconscious TAG doesn't generate order" to one saying that the "pilot doesn't generate any order at all".
    The RAI seem clear but the RAW not so much...
     
    #22 Ogid, Jun 23, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
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  3. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    Yeah, there is no doubt that the clarity could be improved.
     
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  4. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Which I doubt they will, since the rule is clear enough for widespread use as it currently stands, and entering into ever more minutiae to please a vanishingly small number of player(s) would not be worth the return.
     
  5. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    You're right, it's better that people quit the game than that the rules get fixed. That's certainly a positive way to build a community. (/s)
     
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  6. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    TAG pilots do not generate orders in the same way dismounted bikes do not generate orders, the twist been of course that on bikes the order is generated by the troop on the bike and the troop on the bike is the moving part, while on the TAG-Pilot relationship it is inverted and the TAG generates the order while the pilot is the moving part.
     
  7. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    I was going to bring up motorcycles but someone has beaten me to the punch, it seems.

    In general, though, if it's a single trooper with alternate profiles, they are always going to produce at most one order, regardless of what sort of mounted/dismounted state they are in.
     
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  8. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Exactly, absent something like Tactical Awareness.
     
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  9. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

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    Or stop feeding the troll. No sarcasm.
     
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  10. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

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    It’s perfectly clear. Unless you’re trying to cheat.
     
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  11. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I'm not sure who you're referring to. I don't see eye-to-eye with Ginrei about everything, but posts like this (and by extension, users like them) are valuable because they show places where the rules are incomplete or missing.

    It's actually not 'perfectly clear.' The problem you might be having is that it feels like common sense that it should work a certain way, but you should never apply common sense to the ruleset of a game as complicated as Infinity, because many of the rules contradict how common sense say they should (for a very basic example, Impact Templates being F2F with BS attacks from models that aren't the primary target is incredibly counter-intuitive for new players.) Read the actual text of the rules and you'll see it's like 90% baked right now.

    I literally cannot fathom why so many people are so rabid about not fixing problems in the phrasing/writing style/omissions of the rules. Even if something "feels" like it should work a certain way, that needs to be clearly defined for the ruleset to function. (Why else would intent be the most hotly debated thing in the entire game?)
     
  12. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

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    How many units do you add to the army list?
    1? Then it is 1 model with 2 profiles.
    CB will never FAQ this, because they believe (correctly) that people should RTFM and that it is clear there.
    My opinion regarding intent is public. Not going to derail this thread with it.
     
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  13. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Fixing the rules and actual rules issues is one thing, but indulging nitpicking is an entirely different kettle of fish, especially if the nitpick is never satiated nor placated, much less satisfied.
     
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  14. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    The original post was literally about how every other type of multi-profile unit specifies how its order count works for each profile. Also Posthumans, for example, directly contradict your first statement. It's not as simple as you want to make it, even if it "feels" like it should be.
     
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  15. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    It seems to me that historically and now, the nitpick isn't satiated or placated because of a lack of action on CB's part, rather than because of any given forum poster.
     
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  16. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    Another example of a unit you add that doesn't generate orders are servants. You add them individually they got an order symbol on their profile but ass their rules they don't add orders. So its not as simple as you add a trooper it generates its order you need to check the rules of the trooper. All of their rules.
    I am sure that TAG and Pilot only generate one order thats pretty sure the intention of CB but the rules don't directly support this. In every other case its clearly spelled out. So while yes this isn't a rule they should prioritize to clean up it should be cleaned up to improve the game.
     
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  17. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    ^This.
    A good point is a good point, these kind of posts helps to have a future better rules iteration. But let's be also realists; unless that living rulebook line start, rules aren't going to change from one day to another. So let's be also patient.

    And I was also pretty sure this worked like this. But when I was challenged to prove it with the rules, I couldn't find a line or combination of lines that show that without any doubt. So even if I don't doubt about the RAI nor would play as if the pilot generate orders, it'd be good if this would be stated more clearly. And it would be as easy as changing this line:
    If the pilot is supossed to not generate any order at all, then the "of an Unconscious" part here is just making things unclearer than it should.
     
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  18. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Folks keep repeating ad nauseum that “a good point is a good point” and seemingly expecting CB to always look past how the message is delivered, while rarely putting any onus of the person delivering the message to examine how they’re doing so... funny, that. Additionally, what qualifies as “a good point” is subjective, especially in light of how often does the interaction occur, how many actual players (not just frequent forum dweller) are affecting, how much would any fix spider out through the rest of the rules, are the resources needed worth the effort, etc., etc., etc.
     
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  19. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    This is how it works:
    1) A TAG is a model with two distinct alternative profiles. They can be both on table, but you will always activate just one of them.
    2) A TAG/Pilot generates 1 order
    3) If the Pilot dismounts, they still generates 1 order, you just keep activating the Pilot.
    4) If the Pilot is dismounted and his TAG goes unconscious, the Pilot DO NOT generates an order.
    Bonus) If the TAG goes unconscious BEFORE the Pilot dismounts, he can no longer do it, because you cannot spend order on unconscious models (exception excluded)

    Again, it is not written well, but this is how it works.
     
  20. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    And how was the message delivered in this case?

    I did not tell CB this requires immediate attention. I did not tell CB how and when they must fix any of this. Did I go through the wrong channels? Was there a form i should've filled out instead?

    What qualifies as a good point is subjective. So keep in mind that your thoughts on the matter are just that. My thoughts start from the perspective of someone picking up Infinity for the first time and trying to play correctly. Infinity is a product being sold in stores and at some point new players are going to be learning the game. Even players who join an existing community are probably going to spend time learning things on their own.

    There are a lot of questions that need answering after reading the rules and playing some games. Coming into these forums and encountering people like you does not encourage me to keep asking questions. I'm sure that's the outcome you're after and it's sad. Infinity has some great qualities, but it's hard to enjoy them when I must learn the game here with you.

    (s) Your first three posts in this thread telling me "Never" were brilliant in the way they showed me how to follow various rules for this game. Your following posts trying to treat the issues as insignificant and obvious certainly helped keep my focus. Your final use of the term forum dweller perfectly captured the essence of what makes Infinity great. (/s)
     
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