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When do Pilots and their TAG both generate an Order token?

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Ginrei, Jun 23, 2019.

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  1. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    The rules in this game explain why certain troopers don't generate the orders on their profile even though multiple profiles are found in one entry on Army. The rules are very explicit about this.

    Chimera + 3 Pupniks are in total 4 troopers and profiles. Each trooper and profile should generate the orders listed on them. However, the Pupnik's are G: Synchronized troopers so the rules explain they don't provide Orders to the Order Pool.

    A Fraacta only generates one order even though it has two profiles listed because the Transmutation rules explain when and why the 2nd profile is used.

    Zoe & Pi-Well each generate the own order as indicated clearly in their profile. There are no rules to the contrary.

    Scarface & Cordelia have 3 troopers and profiles listed that all produce orders. However, at the start of the game and when going first only 2 orders are generated. The ONLY reason for this is because the Pilot rule tells us explicitly that the Pilot profile is not active until the user spends an order to Move Dismount.

    Once the Pilot Dismounts there are several rules that back why in any following Tactical Phase both Pilot and TAG generate their own order as you would for any trooper who has an order listed on their profile. This rule shows a situation when the Order generated by the Pilot is restricted:
    • The Pilot of an Unconscious Vehicle or TAG generates no Orders for himself or for his Order Pool.
    The Hacking Program Expel says expelled Pilots still generate orders too. This rule probably exists because the Pilot didn't use the normal process to Move Dismount their TAG and activate their Pilot profile.
    • An expelled Pilot continues to generate Orders for her Order Pool.
    This FAQ shows that TAG's still generate orders without their Pilot as per normal rules:

    Q: A Pilot or Remote Pilot has dismounted from his TAG and the TAG is not in a Null state. Does the TAG still generate Orders in the Order count step of the Tactical Phase?
    A: Yes.
    So at the start of my Tactical phase, if my TAG and Dismounted Pilot (active profile) are on the table and under no adverse conditions, they both generate an Order?
     
  2. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    I'm 99% sure: Pilots doesn't generate their own order.
    In manned TAGs you have this rule
    So, they are not different troopers but the same trooper represented by 2 models. It's true that in the pilot skill it doesn't say specificaly that he doesn't generate an order; but I'd be surprised if the pilot generate it's own order being the same trooper as the TAG, and specially when he cannot generate orders when the TAG is unconscious.
    Also, the Expel rules seem quite outdated.
    The top one have been FAQed.
    The second one assumes that the Pilot generate orders when every other rule point against that (maybe in a early iteration of these rules the pilot was the main profile that generate the order)
    The third point is redundant with the actual Manned rules.
     
  3. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member

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    Them being alternate profiles certainly mean that they only generate a single order.

    The rules call out the different half for order generation depending on the context, but they all refer to the same trooper.

    It could definitively be cleaned up.
     
  4. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Short answer: never.
     
  5. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    The rule stating the Manned TAG has an alternate profile with the Pilot Skill doesn't give us any instructions to follow. Nor are there rules and a definition for what having an alternate profile means. Drawing conclusions from other troopers with alternate profiles that have a different set of rules isn't wise. Especially when those other troopers have skills telling us to switch to or use those profiles instead. Pilot Profiles are activated and TAG profiles are never deactivated, only limited.

    This FAQ shows us that in a situation where the Pilot is Dismounted and active, the TAG still generates an order.

    Q: A Pilot or Remote Pilot has dismounted from his TAG and the TAG is not in a Null state. Does the TAG still generate Orders in the Order count step of the Tactical Phase?
    A: Yes.

    From here, we need to determine if the Dismounted Pilot also generates an order. The Pilot has an active profile that tells us it does. The profile is identical to other troopers that generate an order as per the rules. I also quoted two separate instances where the rules discuss the generation of the Pilot's order. So without specific instructions telling us the Pilot does not generate an order, how can you say it doesn't? Opinion isn't a fact or rule.
     
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  6. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    How do the rules differentiate which profile is the one used for Order generation? If the TAG generates an order while the Pilot is inside, and the TAG is still the profile generating the order while the Pilot is Dismounted... under what context does the Pilot generate the Order instead?
     
  7. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Once more, with feeling. Short answer: never.
     
  8. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member

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    If you treat every reference of the tag or the pilot generating the order as referring to the same trooper then things stay coherent. They are alternate profiles, not 2 distinct troopers.

    The only reason the rules are specifying the alternate profile are because they are the relevant one in the context of the rule.
     
  9. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    If the game wants me to treat both troopers as one... why don't the rules explicitly tell me how to do this? In the absence of such rules, the reading and interpretation of separate troop profiles seems appropriate.

    I've given examples of how the rules explicitly tell us to handle these situations with other troopers. Why don't similar rules exist for this situation?
     
  10. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Your opinion might hold more value if you provide some rules to back it up.
     
  11. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member

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    They use the words "alternative Troop Profile" as part of the pilot rule.

    I think it's pretty obvious that if something is an alternative of something else, it still is the same base thing. So referring to one of them refers to the actual trooper.

    It's unfortunate that they didn't spell the whole definition of the word alternative as part of the ruleset and assumed people would understand their intentions.

    I do get your point though, the rules could be clearer. They probably didn't overthink that it could be such a brainbuster.
     
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  12. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Perhaps the third time’s the charm. Short answer: never.
     
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  13. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I don't think having two separate models, each with their own troop profile, on the table as separate and valid targets, is obvious that they should function as one trooper. Having an alternate profile you can use independently of the other doesn't mean the two profiles are connected in any special way. What connects how two troop profiles function as a pair are skills like Transmutation, Mechanical Transmutation, G: Marionette, G: Servant, G: Synchronized. All of those only generate one order as per the rules. Manned and Pilot connect two profiles in a different way.

    The definition of the word "Alternative" supports this, "one of two or more available possibilities", "available as another possibility." There is no definition that supports the two profiles functioning as some sort of connected pair with effects to one profile being passed to the other in any capacity. The rules explicitly point out the only connections between the troop profiles.
     
  14. Monster

    Monster Active Member

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  15. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    It is unfortunate if their intent was for those profiles to function differently than what the RAW say. I wouldn't be surprised if your interpretation was their intent. If that was their intent, the rules are extremely terrible to that end.
    Has this been discussed before?
     
  16. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    I'ts true that it could be clearer, but everything points towards the pilot not generating orders:

    It's the same trooper. A trooper generating 2 orders, even in a niche situation, is something to state very clearly.
    But for me the deal breaker is the rule that say that if the TAG is unconscious, the pilot doesn't generate any order. If the pilot is supossed to generate his own order while in the table. Why does he suddenly stop generating his own orders when the TAG is unoperative?

    The only thing that could generate some doubts is the Expel rules, but these are clearly from another age.
     
  17. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member

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    The word “alternative” makes it clear that they are not distinct troopers.
     
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  18. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    But only as clear as people are willing to let it be. If they need it to be unclear (for whatever reason) then no amount of discussion will change that. The TAG and its pilot are tied together, providing a single order, regardless of how folks choose to continually misinterpret it and other rules.
     
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  19. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I don't know, I can guess. It's not the first rule in the game to feel strange. I just follow it's instructions without bias. To me that's a far better approach than to disregard rules because I can't explain them or they don't fit my narrative.

    Why is there this bias towards the Pilot and TAG profiles functioning as one trooper and sharing certain states?

    Personal opinion the Pilot and TAG are not distinct troopers, or that they function as one, is not what determines how many orders a list generates. Those orders are determined by counting the icons on the troopers profiles. How could the rules be any clearer that the Pilot generates an Order? It's right there on it's profile. For any troopers order to not count towards the total, there needs to be a rule/state preventing it. Pupnik's don't count their orders as per the rules. Personal opinion about how the Pilot and TAG profiles are connected is not a rule.

    Show me a rule that disproves the rules that I follow please.
    Why do you have this need to defend the rules as functioning as intended, no matter how they actually read?

    If they are meant to be tied together and only ever generate one order... by all means defend that intent. But don't defend the RAW as supporting that intent.
     
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  20. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member

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    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Pilot

    Pilot is actually a rule.

    A rule that allows you to use an alternative profile.

    This Special Skill allows the user to use an alternative Troop Profile.

    Alternative means that, it’s an alternative.

    If this is not clear enough for you, I don’t think anything will be and there is no point in furthering this discussion until CB decides if they want to make the rule one step clearer.
     
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