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What to expect from Zhencha?

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Greysturm, Aug 8, 2018.

  1. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    I was also wondering what kind of people are you playing with that let you ARO without a FtF when they Discover
     
    Zewrath likes this.
  2. Mc_Clane

    Mc_Clane Zhànzhēng bùzhǎng
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    Dudes, If the oponent chooses discover it renounces to shoot you if you reveal yourself as second part of the order with a DEP
     
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  3. Joametz

    Joametz Chinese Empire in Space enthusiast

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    This. You could declare a Discover + Shoot special action, in which case you would shoot the guy when he AROs as a FtF, but you need to declare it using an entire order.
     
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    That's incorrect.

    Discover + Shoot is not stated as a Entire Order skill, it remains two separate Short Skills. If your opponent declares Discover as first skill, they may still declare BS Attack as the second Short Skill.

    Add on to that, if you reveal yourself in ARO, they do not even need to make use of the Special Manoeuvre since Discover is a Short Movement Skill and can naturally be combined with BS Attack.
     
  5. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Which comes back to the point of why would you shoot back if they're discovering. Let them burn a second order to shoot at you.


    If they declare this and you don't want to risk tanking normal rolls, you flash pulse if you're in DEP range bands and SMG if it's closer, it's got better odds of winning the F2F. Zencha's got poor BS for a HI.
     
  6. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
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    IMO It really pays off when you use traditional Dao-saving tactic; prone on high ground.

    Don't bother using FO on ARO; Zhencha should not left naked on reactive turns. Stay down, or you'll get engaged by Montesa :(
     
  7. Joametz

    Joametz Chinese Empire in Space enthusiast

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    You are correct, what I meant was that you spend the entire order discovering and shooting. I chose my words poorly.
     
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  8. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Suppressive Fire in cover if you really need to buy time on some ground is worth it probably. You stack a -9 MOD on them.
     
    ObviousGray likes this.
  9. Mc_Clane

    Mc_Clane Zhànzhēng bùzhǎng
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    The two situations are diferent.

    1) The one I've said was during zenchas active turn. moving as marker.
    • If the enemy does not declare discover and holds it's aro, you continue towards your 8' good range or towards the enemy back and the rest of their troops. And the enemy aro is lost because it renounced (this can't be done against 6thSense troops on their respective ranges). (eitherway you win)
    • If the enemy chooses discover as ARO, because he doesn't want for you to continue on your sneaky path, You shoot a DEO pr a SMG burst in its Face unopposed. This is pretty usual when your opponent wants to hold you down and It's confident in It's resistance, like with a TAG or a HI. The wise choice is to hold you before reaching 8', either to flame you or to shoot you under good mods on a posible following situation. In this situation a DEP can be worth trying...
    2) The Joametz situation is during reactive, and is rarely seen. It only happens when the opponent is dry on orders and does a second move in which you see him or when the opponent is a newbie.

    And another rare situation is under a coordinated order with the zencha and another decent shooter. the enemy should choose to shoot the regular trooper or dodge (again, it doesn't work against 6S troops can hold their ARO). It's probably dodge, but If your'e able to bait him (for example exposing a juicy target or the enemy is a TAG or remote and your shooter has surprise) the zencha can launch a DEP to it's face
     
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  10. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
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    So we got one golden conclusion; DEP to one's face is awesome.
     
  11. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I think your opponent would have to be incredibly foolish to do this with valuable models like a TAG when they are aware your common camo markers carry DEPs.

    Just like you don't do discover rolls against the TAK camo marker at the back of the table because oh what a surprise, that's an anti tank round from a Tankhunter to the face and you regret choices made.
     
  12. Mc_Clane

    Mc_Clane Zhànzhēng bùzhǎng
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    In vanilla He doesn't know if it's a zencha, a guilang or a daofei with multi. And regular skirmisher doesn't have DEPs, they have humble combis or shotguns... damn, even some advanced troops like tomcats pay caps for them!
     
  13. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, but we're assuming your opponent isn't a window licking retard here and can figure out that Yu Jing now has access to camo DEPs because he does happen to read army profiles and he needs to really think twice about doing this if he doesn't know what's under the camo marker.

    While some people do indeed fall prey to the same gotchas over and over (WHAT'S A SPECULO KILLER???) we're not basing the discussion on them.
     
  14. Mc_Clane

    Mc_Clane Zhànzhēng bùzhǎng
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    Dude, It's not the same. This is only one profile option between 3, Standard Yujing camo IS and will keep being Mr.Guilang. What are the odds? anyone can make the mistake. And if They don't make it, you can keep advancing and evade the direct template zone and make a real mess. It can become a WIN-WIN situation, even If It's not the Zencha and you are bluffing.

    It even may be worth potentially loosing 1 W/STR point and discover you...
     
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  15. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Dude, risking your 100pt TAG eating a DEP to the face for no reason when you know there's potentially a DEP under that camo marker is a stupid move.

    I'm not saying that you can't get value out of them refusing to discover you, but what I am saying is them attempting to discover your marker when they're fully aware there might be a DEP under there, with their army's lynchpin model, is a goddamn retarded move and there's no two ways about it.

    It's risk vs reward. The reward of discovering the model isn't worth risking a third of your army, the third which the rest of your army is built to support, potentially dieing in one hit to it.
     
  16. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but they not risking Discovering your marker is an advantage for you just merely because Zencha exist.
     
  17. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
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    Whatever, If Yu Jing player succeed in crawling a DEP Zhencha in vicinity of a TAG, he got that game for damn sure. Man, I wish I can throw DEP to TAG's Face.
     
  18. Mc_Clane

    Mc_Clane Zhànzhēng bùzhǎng
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    Fuck, so you're saying no one will try discover my camo markers as reactive ever again? Thank you zencha DEP!
    I might never use you but I love you!

    /Sarcasm mode: OFF

    And that last sentence where you say risking 3 str pints with 4+3ARM tag against damage 14 is to loose 1/3rd of your army... really hilarious :joy:

    It's lightly probable at best, but sounds fun
     
  19. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I agree, people shouldn't be in the habit of letting camo markers approach their tags unchallenged, but it doesn't change the part where they also shouldn't try to discover them with the TAG if they know a DEP might be under it.


    If they're not braindead, they won't do it with the TAG, yes. They'll do it with whatever chaffe they put in front of the TAG to stop people running up to it, because that's something they should also be very much in the habit of doing. You know because the other thing that tends to hide under camo markers is Assault Hackers who want to play grand theft TAG. Another really important reason to not try to discover these camo markers approaching your TAG.


    You are forgetting it's still the Yu Jing player's turn because you're making the stupid decision to ARO discover. Zencha probably won't get all 3 wounds in 1 shot. But let's say he lands 2. You've now got a 1 wound TAG who dropped his SF mode if he had it (spoiler alert: he should've had it) facing off against an SMG with AP rounds, let alone what other guns might be in the army, and you're going to feel mighty stupid when I sink a few more orders into polishing off your TAG.
     
    #299 Triumph, Nov 12, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2018
  20. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

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    What with all the various private info shenanigans, I find Infinity to be a game with a much faster meta evolution (in some spheres) even amongst relatively stable groups. What works today doesn't always work tomorrow...

    That said, the DEP can fire up to 24" away in the good range band, or half a board away. So, the approach vector can be more oblique, and potentially easier to disguise.