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What to do if a FAQ ruling is clearly wrong?

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Hecaton, Jul 8, 2019.

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  1. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure if you're referring to negativity as the game issues being brought up or the attacks on other members. But regardless...

    Closing threads gives the members not behaving exactly what they want and promotes more negativity. It proves they can be abusive to others and interfere or stop them participating on these forums.

    If the only result from me attacking any member I dislike is that the threads they're participating in are closed... what precedent does that set? Who wins and who loses?

    New players will have to learn quickly who not to upset. Or who's opinions not to challenge. Because if they upset the wrong person they will be hounded mercilessly.
     
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  2. Bobman

    Bobman MERC
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    So you think pages of pointless back and forth aggressive posts without conclusion is a good thing.

    Interesting...
     
  3. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    No, I don't think that. Interesting... you didn't even bother to phrase that as a question. You made an assumption and it's incorrect.
     
    #103 Ginrei, Jul 12, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
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  4. Bobman

    Bobman MERC
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    You assume I assumed. I did not. I gleened that from the insinuation from your previous post.
     
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  5. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    If the insinuation is this one
    I think that the point he is making is that If a player is allowed to wreak havoc in a thread with no negative repercusions to himself, that player have the perfect "tool" to censor the post or discussions he don't like. He only have to show up, make some bitter remarks and voila! one less thread.
    It doesn't help that @Ginrei is not very hard to jebait tho :P
     
  6. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure what jebait means exactly, but from my quick google search, i guess that's true. I respond to more comments than I probably should. Like this one...
    I didn't have to assume anything here. I know what I wrote and what I think. You do not.

    You can call it whatever you want. But what you think I'm hinting at, or what you think you've extracted from my statements, is incorrect.
     
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  7. Bobman

    Bobman MERC
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    A whole bunch of your posts tells me otherwise...
     
  8. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Then you're reading/interpreting them incorrectly.

    Edit, @Bobman You stated you got that from my one post at the top of this page. Did I misunderstand that statement? Is it now multiple posts you're referring to? Can you provide examples of them?
     
    #108 Ginrei, Jul 12, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
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  9. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    Maybe it would be best if everyone dropped it and walked away from this one?
     
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  10. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    Or maybe someone could just step up and address the issues that are being raised?

    I mean, for those who are familiar with the rules, it should be easy to explain what Ginrei is missing here, right?
     
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  11. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    Perhaps I was being unclear. It seemed to me as though the conversation was sliding away from the subject of what makes the rules consistent. If someone wants to comment on that by all means. But the last 10 posts (mine included) on this page haven't really been related.

    As for the interchangability of ARM and BTS rolls. It seems to me like the fact BTS rolls specifically state they are the same but using a different stat makes them fairly interchangable.

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/BTS_Roll

    edit: Because I know someones going to tell me thats already been said and disregarded.

    We can also look at the Damage rules that specifically use BTS/ARM in a pairing. In much the same way it uses W/STR as interchangable.
    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Damage
     
  12. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    I see you grasped the concept XDD. Let it be man...

    Yep, this went offrail.
    The thing is scenery and equipment don't have anything that tie them up like these AFAIK. Is there any example or line of text where they are used interchangeably or where it is said both are the same?
    That would be a good starting point.
     
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  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    No, and the FAQ ruling in question implies that they shouldn't be. Hence "Damaged AI Beacons still provide an order."
     
    ChoTimberwolf, Ogid and Ginrei like this.
  14. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    So you think people should just lay down and die under the slightest bit of pressure*. Interesting...

    *I don't believe you think that, I'm just making a point. Which is, people should be free to defend themselves. Hiding our heads in the sand isn't always the best policy.
    Getting back on track, I already commented on that exact point. Damage is not caused from the Roll rules. Damage is caused from various Ammo or Skill effects. On one side we have rules about how to make rolls. On the other side we have rules about how weapons and skills cause damage. Interchanging the rolls doesn't change how those weapon and skill effects cause damage. I can link the exact posts if you want.

    I can't stress this enough, 'BTS rolls working like ARM rolls' does not mean they are the same thing or interchangeable. Seriously, that statement is followed up with an exception stating how they are different. When Breaker ammo hits and forces BTS rolls, players don't get to make ARM rolls instead. These rolls are two different things.

    I don't want to have this discussion myself. I just want to use that situation as another example of players making up house rules. When we look at the various house rules they can come across very arbitrary at times.

    When it comes to Damaged AI Beacons, as @Hecaton points out, RAW implies a conclusion contrary to the house rules of this community. And hearing the community use the rules to support some of their house rules while ignoring them for others, is very hypocritical.
     
  15. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    No I think that polite and pleasant communication is a foundational element to how we function as a society and I think more people need to apply the rules of polite communication to online discussions. In some cases engaging in endless bickering is not productive or beneficial to the community and it would be more beneficial if everyone stepped back.

    And I have made the mistake of bickering more than I would care to admit. Hell I'm probably making it right now.

    Except in the damage section we see that BTS/ARM rolls are referred to interchangeably throughout. As per the link in my previous post. In most cases you dont have the option to control which one you make of course but the rules themselves are clearly marked as equivalents when receiving damage. That doesn't mean that you can just pick and choose of course you're right but the rolls/results are interchangeable.

    People can 100% be fickle hypocritical beasts, you probably need to get used to that.

    That being said I think its clear there is some issue with the AI Beacon Rules. But here are some facts we know:
    1. An AI Beacon Cannot enter the unconscious state. Since its not a trooper.
    2. An AI Beacon can enter the damaged state.
    3. An AI Beacon Cannot be repaired by an Engineer (the FAQ gives us this answer, the justification is up in the air).
    4. An AI Beacon can use skills that it shouldn't otherwise be able to use but may only do so when specified in the AI Beacon Rules.
    So what's the end result?

    An AI Beacon becomes damaged and then becomes what? A troop profile with no rules and no status in the game. Which seems to me to be pretty much exactly how everyone is playing it?
     
  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I'd contest 3, because that FAQ entry is making a non sequitur argument.

    The end result seems to be "The AI Beacon becomes Damaged but is still functional until it loses another STR point"
     
  17. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    The second effect of Damaged says otherwise on that.

    • Whatever Automatic Special Skills and Automatic Equipment the piece of scenery had have no effect while it is Damaged.
    AI Beacon is Automatic Equipment so it would remain on the table, become Difficult Terrain, and not provide an order.

    Unless you mean something other than what I read "still functional" to mean.
     
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  18. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    The FAQ provides "Q: can you do this - A: no", which really isn't ambiguous.

    See also ones like the hacking/stealth ones where it says "you can always reset" which isn't actually always true. But it doesn't negate the entire answer.

    Edit: Since things are taking this turn a lot, I would definitely prefer FAQs that provide sound justifications, and that indicated that all the implications had been thoroughly considered. But even in the absence of that, things like the AI beacon repair FAQ is playable as written.
     
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  19. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    Is that not a selective reading of the answer? The answer could be:

    The no is still a clear answer. The second sentence is just there for context relevant or not.
     
  20. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    You'll note that that only applies to scenery.
     
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