1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra PolĂ­tica de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

What is the difference between a TAG and a massive HI like the Ratnik?

Discussion in 'Ariadna' started by Keyrott, Jul 18, 2018.

  1. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2017
    Messages:
    3,478
    Likes Received:
    5,062
    shrug, operators have other strenghts, they are hillarious in C&P for example but fair enough
     
  2. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    914
    Likes Received:
    427
    Nothing changes and nothing is lost if we improve the silhouette system. It just becomes easier to understand and use in the future. I really don't see what praising the current system accomplishes. Unless of course you're not actually implying it should stay as is.
     
  3. Balewolf

    Balewolf It's all opinion

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    327
    Likes Received:
    538
    Your suggestion isn't an improvement in any way. The idea that it's easier to remember a HeightxWidth system compared to a S# system is silly when you just look at the unit profile and grab the corresponding token for it. You keep saying that there would be the same amount of "Templates", so why would they need to move away from the current, easily identified templates?
     
    AdmiralJCJF and Keyrott like this.
  4. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    2,605
    Likes Received:
    4,978
    Yeah, when silhouettes were first hinted at there were discussions and guesses about how they would be structured that were something along those lines.

    What we have now are basically

    25 mm short/tall
    40mm short/medium/tall
    55mm short/tall
    maghariba
     
    Errhile, Keyrott and daboarder like this.
  5. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2017
    Messages:
    3,478
    Likes Received:
    5,062
    I dunno, whats the issue whit the current system, its simple to use with a handful of specific values that come wiht pre-assigned tools to determine the volume a miniature occupies.
     
    AdmiralJCJF and colbrook like this.
  6. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    2,605
    Likes Received:
    4,978
    I agree that the numbers are hard to remember. I wouldn't mind a system that were a bit more descriptive.
    Edit: I should have annotated the above with numbers.

    25 mm short (1) / tall (2)
    40mm short (3) / medium (5) / tall (6)
    55mm short (4) / tall (7)
    maghariba (8)

    There is a size progression there, but I had to look things up to make sure I got it all right.
     
    Errhile and Ginrei like this.
  7. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    914
    Likes Received:
    427
    This resistance to change is amazing. Even in the face of irrefutable facts. 1 or 2 things to remember is less to remember than 8. it also opens up new possibilities that would be easier to implement.
    Read the above.

    My suggestion may seem minuscule in this vacuum but it's still better. And the more elements in the game that are improved, even slightly, ADD UP in a game of this scale. The silhouette temples are still viable, they may just change slightly to align with the new values. CB did the same thing with base sizes. I'm pretty sure the community can cope with this too.
     
  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,867
    Likes Received:
    4,695
    See: Umbra Samaritan.
     
  9. chaos11

    chaos11 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    639
    Likes Received:
    843
    But you don't need to remember anything, you just look at the number on the profile and use the corresponding template.
     
  10. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,443
    Likes Received:
    1,380
    There is no objective reason you use number for base size and letter for height. Because of that there is nothing intuitive in infantry being 2a and standard REM being 1b (and so on). So there is a logic in your system but it's not intuitive => hard to sell

    So, in fact it's 2 things to remember per silhouette (number and letter) against 1 today (number).

    Also your argument of CB needing to create a new silhouette one day doesnt work as it's very unilikely CB will need a new silhouette one day

    Only improvement I would see in the system would be to have silhouette number growing in a more linear way. Instead off :

    25 mm short (1) / tall (2)
    40mm short (3) / medium (5) / tall (6)
    55mm short (4) / tall (7)
    maghariba (8)

    I would do :

    25 mm short (1) / tall (2)
    40mm short (3) / medium (4) / tall (5)
    55mm short (6) / tall (7)
    maghariba (8)

    But it's my logic so I don't think everyone will share it
     
    ijw, tdc and chromedog like this.
  11. tdc

    tdc ALEPH Fragment
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    1,364
    Likes Received:
    1,200
    No joke,

    Apart from S2, they are all in height order.

    S1 = 25 mm
    (S2 = 40 mm)
    S3 = 32 mm
    S4 = 32 mm
    S5 = 45 mm
    S6 = 55 mm
    S7 = 67 mm
    S8 = 70 mm

    And (apart from S4), they are indeed in volume order too.

    There probably is some sort of ordering, like type then base size.

    Normal Infantry (S1, S2)
    Remotes (S3, S4)
    Large Infantry (S5)
    Tags (S6,S7,S8)
     
    coleslaw and chromedog like this.
  12. tdc

    tdc ALEPH Fragment
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    1,364
    Likes Received:
    1,200
    I share it :)
     
  13. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    914
    Likes Received:
    427
    I'm not sure what point you're making. CB made a S2 model. They make lots of them. There doesn't need to be any connection between the actual model size and the Silhouette value. It would be nice because it provides a visual reminder... but it's not necessary.
    Is this argument you and others have made supposed to mean something? You don't need to remember anything with my suggestion either. You can happily look at the NEW number and pick that corresponding template.
    I agree that using a number+letter might not be a pattern that suits everyone. But a pattern that suits some people is infinitely better than having no pattern at all, is it not?

    Also there are other options that follow a pattern using only one number. Base size can be considered intuitive. Write a simple ruling stating a models silhouette width is its base size. Models are sold at set base sizes, that's about as intuitive as it gets. Now all that has to be done is indicate silhouette value only refers to height. Or even change the attribute to height instead. Now we decide how to represent height. Is it going to be a set incremental value? Or is it going to simply say the number of millimeters. So a Moderators silhouette/height is now 2(Xmm) or 40(mm) depending on flavor. Grabbing the corresponding template still works, we just need to match the new values. I do want to say i'd prefer the number+letter solution. Because just indicating height doesn't tell anyone new to the game that certain troops have a larger width.

    CB might not want to make a new silhouette size i agree. But the simple fact is you don't know and having that option is better than not. It's also a fact having a system that can be manipulated in others ways as I've suggested is better. It's a fact there is less to remember. And finally, it's a fact that no functionality is lost compared to the current system.
     
  14. cazboab

    cazboab Member (phrasing)

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2017
    Messages:
    956
    Likes Received:
    1,270
    I think the point is that the Samaritan is taller than S2. Which for S2 is fine because there isn't another silhouette the same size but taller on the same base, which is the exact problem with the blackjack. The real embugerance is if you want to put the model inside a building made for S2. Now even some poses prevent that, but when the main body of the mini won't fit it's partially frustrating.

    It's also a bit of a problem with Uhahu, but the other way around, she's an S1ish mini with an S2 profile so without checking the template it can be hard to judge what she can see/be seen over and vault etc.
     
    Ginrei likes this.
  15. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    914
    Likes Received:
    427
    It's certainly a tough balancing act i agree. On one hand having the actual miniatures reflect their silhouette size makes LoF or physical placement more intuitive and easier. On the other hand more dynamic and unique miniatures can be more fun. To me there is no correct answer and it's up to the game designers to decide. Players will certainly have their opinion on what they prefer.

    I can't deny that having the majority of S2 miniatures be the size of the Samaritan would be irritating. But right now these irregularities represent a small percentage by my estimation. So personally, i'm fine with how CBs doing in this regard. My opinion can certainly change in the future.
     
  16. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    2,605
    Likes Received:
    4,978
    That's kind of my point, though. I have to look at the template (or another troop profile that I know the size of) to know how big it is. If I see that a new troop is S3, I have to either remember that's "normal REM size" or I have to get out the templates. For my second post where I included the silhouette values alongside the size description, I had to go to Warsenal's site and look at their silhouette template product page to make sure I got them all correct.
     
    Ginrei likes this.