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What is the difference between a TAG and a massive HI like the Ratnik?

Discussion in 'Ariadna' started by Keyrott, Jul 18, 2018.

  1. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Well... Umbra Samaritan says hi.
    In comparison this seems somehow okay...ish.

    Full list of TAG vs S5 HI traits

    TAG
    - vulnerable to TAG specific Programs
    - Dodge at -3
    - can't go Prone
    - gain Fatality
    - always carry a Specialist
    - generally are faster than the average trooper
    - generally have STR, so require Engineers
    - generally take at least 4 W to remove completely

    S5 HI
    - can go Prone
    - generally have Wounds
    - generally are slower than the average trooper


    Bottom range TAGs and high spec S5 HI overlap obviously.
    Then again people have been claiming for ages Achilles is the best TAG there is.
     
    #21 Teslarod, Jul 19, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2018
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  2. tdc

    tdc ALEPH Fragment
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    Bar S2, they are in height order... so close...
     
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  3. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Are you joking? I seriously can't tell. If you are, I'm sorry.

    They are no where near following a pattern. They don't increase by height and they don't increase by diameter. Maybe they increase by volume... which would be fine... but I doubt it follows any meaningful pattern.
     
    #23 Ginrei, Jul 19, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2018
  4. Tom McTrouble

    Tom McTrouble Well-Known Member

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    IMO the silhouette system is easily one of the best things Infinity does and I don't think it's terrible at all. If you start making a whole bunch of sub-sizes it kind of defeats the purpose of having a simple way to check LoF.

    @colbrook 's suggestion makes way more sense to me than trying to add a whole bunch of sub-sizes.
     
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  5. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    I always thought that the real difference between a Heavy Infantry suit and a Tactical Armoured Gear was that in a HI suit, the anthroform of the suit is directly related to the anthoform of the person inside, i.e your arms are in the arms of the suit, legs in the legs, head in the head etc. The amount of suit around you varies, but you move your arms and the suit moves around you.

    Comparatively, in a TAG, they have a distinct control mechanism and anthroform. The Manned TAGs have those small arms and such on the front, the pilot moves them, and the suit duplicates. In an unmanned TAG, the control mechanism is entirely elsewhere. This to me seems like the control mechanisms could be distinct enough on a technical level to require a seperate kind of classification and for software that operates them to be vulnerable in different ways.
     
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  6. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't sound to me like you understand.

    Creating a recognizable pattern doesn't change the number of silhouettes currently in the game. There will still be exactly 8 silhouettes in existence.

    What this would do is open up an infinite number of possible silhouette sizes without infinitely increasing the number of things players need to memorize. The current system doesn't do that. In fact, my suggestion reduces the number of things a player has to memorize or look up compared to the current system. It's win win.

    It means I can tell a troopers dimensions based on a profiles silhouette value after only memorizing one or two things. So if Infinity had 100 silhouette sizes in the game, the current system means you'd have to memorize 100 different things (or look at a disgustingly long chart), while my suggestion means i still only have to remember 1 or 2 things.

    And when combined with new editions and rule changes, these improvements are compounded. It allows the silhouette value to become something we can use/manipulate for game play rules. Making Prone reduce a silhouette by 2 is a heck of a lot easier to deal with than remembering Prone reduces this silhouette by 2, another by 3, this one by 1, and so on.
     
  7. Darkvortex87

    Darkvortex87 Combat jump kamikaze

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    I also find that silhouettes are a bit screwed up. But frankly, the thing could be solved very easily just by saying "a prone trooper silhouette height is 1/3 of the normal one".
    Then you just draw a line on the silhouette marker and you're ready to go.
     
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  8. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    That seems reasonable but then we'd have to make an exception for silhouettes that should be reduced to S0.

    EDIT: Well that, or accept there is no longer a S0 altogether.
     
  9. Tom McTrouble

    Tom McTrouble Well-Known Member

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    I understand perfectly what you are proposing. You want a system where the diameter is one factor and height is the other one. My point is that to reap the advantages of said system, you have to create more silhouette profiles, otherwise it's not worth changing, and that does more harm than good for gameplay simplicity because the silhouettes have to be represented by physical objects to work.
     
  10. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry, but then you don't understand.

    You don't have to create anymore profiles at all. The current ones being used are simply replaced with another number or number+letter. All S5 are replaced with the exact same value. All S2 are replaced the same way. By doing so, all players no longer need to memorize 8 separate values, they remember 1 or 2 simple rules. That's all that needs to be done to reap the advantages.

    The only sense in which more silhouette profiles are created is... the same way the wound attribute could potentially be as high as 20 or BS could be as low 1. And I don't hear anyone complaining about that.
     
  11. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Heck, I'd be fine if they just changed the Silhouette value into a millimeter value. Nothing to remember at all then. All troopers are as wide as their provided base and as tall as the millimeter value listed.
     
  12. Del S

    Del S Nomadball

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    325 million problems with your idea, though... Americans don't know how to Millimetre. :stuck_out_tongue:

    Oh, and standard silhouettes do simplify things a bit as right now you only need eight different sizes (even if some things get silly).
     
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  13. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    :stuck_out_tongue: so true.

    I'd love to see Silhouette height and Movement follow the same increment. But i'm not going to discuss that here. I can at least get away with silhouettes as it related to this topic.
     
  14. Balewolf

    Balewolf It's all opinion

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    Let me just pull out my adjustable silhouette tokens...
     
  15. MATRAKA14

    MATRAKA14 Well-Known Member

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    Except the anaconda, the anaconda cries in a corner.

    That sounds like a veteran kazak.
     
  16. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    The vet is good imo. But hes only bottom tier HI.

    Compared to the swiss aquila guarda hsien asura. They are all more expencive but that wasnt what i was commenting on
     
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  17. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    One of the best things about the silhouette system is that CB can create cool looking models, and not have to worry obsessively about keeping it within a certain size parameter.

    That's the whole point.

    "Hey, I can kind of see the top of the Samaritan. But isn't that mini pretty tall?"

    "Yeah, good point. Let me get out the size 2 silhouette. Here, looks like there's no LoF after all."

    Or:

    "Hey, my Tikbalang's going to climb over this building. But the mini is a lot taller than the silhouette, so we can stop and check LoF with the silhouette if necessary."
     
  18. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    I love the sillie system
     
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  19. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    The anaconda is still a DAM15 Spitfire/DAM16 HMG option thats packing a back up DAM15 panzerfaust.
    its also still S6 ARM6 BTS6 and therefore still more heavily armoured than the Ratniks. And its S6 means that it can vault a lot more terrain than the S5 SHI can
     
  20. Balewolf

    Balewolf It's all opinion

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    He's referring to the specialist/scoring comment. Same with the Iguana.