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What is the difference between a TAG and a massive HI like the Ratnik?

Discussion in 'Ariadna' started by Keyrott, Jul 18, 2018.

  1. Keyrott

    Keyrott Nomad Handyman

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    So just out of curiosity, what's the differentiating factor between smaller TAGs like the Gecko and a massive Heavy Infantry like the Ratnik? I realize that TAGs get a lot of disadvantages compared to HI, I'm just more curious where the line is drawn between a S6 manned TAG and a very large S5 HI. Is it the control system, when a TAG can be controlled through hacking where a HI can't? Is there much more control given to the machinery in a TAG in deference to the pilot, where a big HI is just "assisting" the person inside without much interference between pilot and equipment?


    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    #1 Keyrott, Jul 18, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2018
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  2. chromedog

    chromedog Less than significant minion

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    Several decades worth of technological progress, in a nutshell.

    Ariadna, while it may once again be part of humanity, is not YET at the same tech level as even the lowly YJ - and while they were cut off for their 60-70 years, the rest of the sphere kept up its pace of advancement while the settlers on Dawn hunkered down and got on with the business of surviving on a hostile world (compared to the Earth-that-was that they left).

    Even as "obsolete" tech as they are, the geckos and other manned TAGs are still 50+ years more advanced than anything the torch-bearing primitives of Dawn can produce. Their Raketniks and Blackjacks are more than likely based off older cargo loader frames that they brought with them. Mod what you have instead of coming up with an entirely new design to do the same thing.
     
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  3. Gerald

    Gerald Member

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    Hi can go prone :)
     
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  4. mothman

    mothman Well-Known Member

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    is no one going to ask how Ratnik and blackjacks manage to become S0 when prone when they are atleast S3 lying down
     
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  5. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    The only reason that Ariadnan HI are comparably survivable is because of their abundant Teseum reserves, the Blackjack and Ratnik are essentially armored with spaceship hull plating.

    Maintenance and upkeep of the Ariadnan designs is probably much higher too.

    TAGs also work as tactical command and control nodes, this is represented in game by them allowing you to take remotes. I'd imagine their controls are closer to move by wire allowing better reactions and accuracy.
     
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  6. Balewolf

    Balewolf It's all opinion

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    I think we have been. Something like that should be built into the heavyweight rule.
     
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  7. Del S

    Del S Nomadball

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    For some size comparisons, here's a Blackjack beside some other bigger units.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Beside S7 and S6 TAGs (Anaconda and Gecko)
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Beside other S5 units (Taskmaster, Kriza Borac, Tariq Mansuri, Al-Fasid, K-9 Antipode)
     
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  8. cazboab

    cazboab Member (phrasing)

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    As the evidence provided above suggests, wether the ariadna super heavy infantry should be considered small tags is almost certainly secondary to a more obvious question:

    You're telling us that thing is S5?

    Stevie Wonder, blindfold, in the dark on a foggy night can tell it's way bigger...
     
  9. Balewolf

    Balewolf It's all opinion

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    Yeah, it's pretty silly. It should really be a tag. It makes sense for the low tech side of things too. No cautious movement, no prone, blah blah blah.
     
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  10. cazboab

    cazboab Member (phrasing)

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    Even if it's not a TAG, the HMG the size of an S5 model on its own probably deserves fatality L1 as much as Tariq's slightly extended spitfire...
     
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  11. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Theres more strenghts to a TAG and More limitations to playing it.

    On the Table they are tougher in general, they are Faster and they hit harder, they also score, something we are yet to see Super Heavy infantry do yet (unless you count the constructs)

    Theres pros and cons to both, but in terms of RAW power SHI definitely sit slightly under TAGs, hell in some ways SHI sit under High class S2 HI such as Swiss Guards, Father Knights the Asura and the like.

    Think of it more as super heavy infantry are a means of getting top tier heavy infantry into a faction that doesnt have access to top tier S2 infantry. but they have to trade off that great power with great vulnerabillity of size and movement unlike TAGs which get massive power and massive speed due to their huge sizes and very fast movement.

    6-4 at S6 is a lot faster on table than 4-2 or 4-4 S5. that sillie change and speed change makes a big difference
     
  12. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Being a TAG also mean a risk of possession/pilot ejection. I don't think Ariadna HI are tech enough to risk that
     
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  13. Del S

    Del S Nomadball

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    Give immunity possession to solve one, and just let the other happen. They're still hackable, the exit system can be remote triggered via hacking, they just use too many mechanical systems to be possessed.
     
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  14. cazboab

    cazboab Member (phrasing)

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    Or give it an operator not a pilot...
     
  15. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Both unit types overlap and deviate in certain areas. But it's the fluff and game rules that set them apart.

    S6 TAGs cover a wide number of roles with some using basic weapons at average speeds while others are fast using heavy weapons. Their defensive capabilities are all fairly similar. S5 HI seem to be armed with heavy weapons predominately. Things like the Su-Jian are basically in a class of their own. IMO they feel more like a TAG with a REM pilot but that would give them access to Fatality lvl1 and specialist, and we don't want that :P.

    I do see a disconnect between the Prone state for S5 HI and S6 Tags. I'm sure the rule could be streamlined a little to make the difference between them not seem so strange. Maybe change Prone into a reduction of 2 or 3 silhouette sizes. Of course we'd need new silhouette categories for each base size, but that's easy enough.
     
  16. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    I don't think new sillies are needed, 5 and 6 could be S3 when prone and S7 can drop to S4
     
  17. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    I hear a fair amount of proposals that would overcomplicate things a bit.

    The way I see it, Ariadna S5 Heavy Infantry could have been Classified as TAGs. But then you lose Prone, you gain vulnerability to Hacking programs (without any real Hacking defense to help) and you create the lore precedent that these factions do, indeed, have TAG-level technology. It also gets away from the idea of these guys as infantry.

    I don't think CB wanted any of that. They don't want Ariadna feeling hyper-vulnerable to anti-TAG programs. They want these things to be able to go prone, to increase their utility and function on the table. They don't want Ariadna claiming TAG-level technology, and they don't want the complexity of having TAGs that are weirdly 4-2, or having Fatality on them either. And they like the idea of Ariadna having badass infantry. Not vehicles with pilots, but infantrymen with enhanced armor. It's a subtle difference, but significant.
     
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  18. Keyrott

    Keyrott Nomad Handyman

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    That's another problem I have with them saying "Oh it's the biggest S5 ever made, it pushes the S5 boundaries!" No dude, it's a S6, that's why there's size categories to begin with lol
     
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  19. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Nothing is truly needed, but it's as an opportunity to fix the terrible silhouette system currently being used. Remembering 8 separate dimensions for silhouettes that don't follow a pattern is stupid. What if CB wants to create a new troop with dimensions that don't fit the 8 available? They can either shoehorn it into an existing one or add a new size to remember that doesn't follow any pattern whatsoever.

    The current system is problematic for potential changes like I've suggested or that others might come up with. I understand that some people might not care because they think it's fine as is. Or that it's fine just making another inconsistent rule as you've suggested. But 'fixing' silhouette sizes makes them easier to remember while providing more control and freedom for developers. It's a win win for everyone moving forward. The only issue is for players who have to relearn something. And unless people expect Infinity to not exist for a new player base, there is only one reason not to change it. Which is possible costs associated with the change and good luck to anyone suggesting they are relevant.

    Silhouette SIze:
    1a 2a 3a...
    1b 2b 3b...
    1c 2c 3c...

    Letter indicates base size and the number should be a set number of mm's for height. Players only need to remember 2 things, the increment is Xmm's and base size increases from the smallest 'a'. Technically we could remove the letter completely as base size is a given leaving only one thing to remember. But I'm hesitant to go that far as my instincts tell me there's a problem lurking out there somewhere I haven't considered.

    Small Quality of Life changes like this add up quickly for a game with this much depth.
     
    #19 Ginrei, Jul 19, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2018
  20. cazboab

    cazboab Member (phrasing)

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    You're not wrong, but I think sublty didn't show up to work the day when they put guns that some of the older TAGs would have had trouble carrying on an infantryman...

    They already have, albeit as a joke, the fat Yuan Yuan, S5 but also S2..

    There's also the 30mm base from aristeia, which so far hasn't crossed over, but sculptors are by nature visually focused, it would not surprise me if particularly bulky HI or Aliens ended up on the wider base eventually...
     
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