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What if Jammer's Isolation was persistant only in Jammer's ZoC

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by eciu, Jul 5, 2019.

  1. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    None of these actually work vs stealth out of LoF (which is what the comment I quoted was refering to, as Jammer also work with LoF)

    Mines is a good example of thing that works vs camo markers, the rest don't. (You can't ARO vs a camo with any of these weapons, which, again, is the thing the situation I quoted was referring to)

    Edit: Nice ninja editing your passive aggressive usual behaviour, great contribution to the discussion.
     
  2. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    As it also works with a jammer.
     
  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    None of those work in situations where Stealth or Camo is relevant. Try again.
     
  4. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    They do work where camo is present. Thanks for the amazing contribution to this conversation!
     
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  5. SpectralOwl

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    Minor quibble to kill this before it turns into a whole tangent; Perimeter Weapons and Mines ignore both.
     
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Do yourself a favour and explain how you use a Smart Missile Launcher against a Camo Marker. Go on. This is your argument to support.

    And stop it with the insults.
    This is true, provided they have been placed ahead of time.
     
  7. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    Mines were in my list.
    An SML can shoot any target near a camo marker and place the template over that marker, thereby interacting.
    Don't be so sensitive. If you check your own tone, you'd realize this is an incredulous statement.
     
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  8. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    Hit a nearby unit. It's the easiest and most common way of damaging a Camo unit without revealing it first. It's true/applicable for all templates.

    Sat Lock + Guided / Spec Fire is an obvious candidate too, simply because Sat Lock's clearly built to be very specialized vs Camo Targets. Clearly the onus is more on Sat Lock as the specialized anti-camo tool, but clearly the two are designed to work together.

    Ninja'd
     
  9. Ankaa

    Ankaa Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for this. This probably sounds incredibly masochistic but I am 100% interested in a genuine and thoughtful discussion regarding controversial rules elements, in this case Jammers in specific. While I am definitely in the camp to defend Jammers I'm interested in hearing what dissenting voices have to say, like you said, sometimes it just requires a novel tactics perspective or something might be brought to my attention that I had never considered and would be inclined to agree with (wrt to them being OP/game-warping). Decorum is key though!
     
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  10. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    Funny; this can also be used against units with Jammers who are hiding out of LoS. Who'd have ever thought?
     
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  11. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    You can't shoot someone near a camo marker with an ARO if the camo marker activates.

    Which, again, is the situation that I commented on barakiel's post.

    This was not a question of "What can affect camo markers", but how Jammers were somehow a rare breed of weapon that can't ARO vs a marker state.

    Saying that Jammers are in a unique place where they have a limited amount of targets they can shoot out compared to other weapons is absurd, as they have more targets than most weapon since they do not require LoF.
     
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  12. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    I like how we're using the fact that you can Sat-Lock a unit and Smart Missile Launcher next to a camo marker in active turn to show that jammers are somehow limited in their target options in ARO.
     
  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    So...
    Hit a nearby unit... which has to be non-stealthed, non-marker, in LOS, and also activated. As an ARO.
    Use Sat Lock (only works in active turn) and Guided (only works in active turn) or Spec Fire (only works in active turn). Also as an ARO.

    Do you see why I found your claims to be very surprising?
     
  14. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    This. But current users complaining have yet to do anything other than draw out the conversation into a stale topic. I've seen more users who are for Jammers offer anything constructive.

    Then use a mine. This game doesn't take place in a vacuum. Plan ahead and play the game.
     
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  15. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    You've got it!
     
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  16. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Excellent point.

    Also, why is a Jammer a Comms Attack without being Comms Equipment?


    • Spec-Fire is order-intensive, but does work. Works better if you manage to put that stupid Jammer into the Targeted state first, and if you can do that why are you not shooting the Jammer with a lethal weapon instead?
    • Decent BTS? Even BTS6 isn't good against a Normal Roll!
    • Super-jump+Shoot? Sure, let's look at how many Super-jumpers with weapons that can reach outside 10" there are in the various factions: PanO has exactly one, the Seraph; YJ does not have one at all; Ariadna only has the Devil Dog HSG (which almost never gets taken due to cost); Haqq has Tariq and the Khawrij (who have their own game-balance issue in FAT2); Nomads have Hollowmen, Bran, and Perseus; Combined have Umbra Samaritans, Rodoks, and Xeodrons; Aleph has Diomedes and the other Ekdromoi; Tohaa have the Kotail and Kerail w/ Mutan; and then you get into the NA2... Druze don't have any super-jumpers, JSA has the Shikami, Ikari doesn't have one, StarCo doesn't have one, Spiral has the Kerail w/ Mutan, Foreign Company doesn't have one, and Dashat doesn't have one.
    • Cheap AD is not necessarily an option in all armies.
    • Stealth is broken by attacks, so unless I am missing a rules interaction the Jammer gets a second ARO declaration chance after the attacker declares their second skill.
    • Reset? Sure, waste half an order. And if it fails you are now stuck with one order for that unit for the next turn.
    3 units with Jammer blocks the entire board. One on the center, one 15" to the left of that, and one 15" to the right (to have a little overlap between them). 4 makes it trivial to block the board, as you can have more overlap of their zones so exact placement matters less.
     
  17. Ankaa

    Ankaa Well-Known Member

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    Totally fair criticism. Personally I wouldn't be opposed to a re-labeling to that effect to add that additional line of interaction
     
  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    To be fair, that's like asking why a laser isn't also a camera because both manipulates light or (to go completely over the top silly) how a bunker buster attacks bunkers but is not a bunker itself. Comms equipment label could serve an in-game purpose, but it is not a necessity and shouldn't provoke a discontinuation of your suspense of disbelief.
    What's more interesting to know is what the difference is between an E/Marat and a Jammer - as in why one is stopped by a wall while the other isn't when both are powerful enough to have a permanent effect in a very similar way.
     
  19. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    I believe WIP13 Jammer vs BTS0 is 44%. Vs BTS6, it's 26%. Decent BTS definitely makes a big difference.

    Pretending Ariadna needs to rely on the Devil Dog Heavy Shotgun is... Not even a real argument. That's a massive reach. Assuming you're not willing to just take your chances with a trade on a Dogface/Cameronian, you can just snipe with the Chain Rifles from outside Zone of Control. Frag Grenades are a backup too.

    This also feels like the 4th or 5th post where I see "why are you suggesting [solution x]? Not all armies have [solution x]." While totally ignoring that between solutions w, x, y and z, every army has something they can do.

    If your opponent stretches Jammers across the board, pick a hole and punch through. That's not a concentrated defense. You should be so lucky. Trade one warband to punch a hole, then attack through the gap. This is like... Tactics 101 here.

    As for Jammer being Comms Equipment, I'm totally down with that. I think AHD vs Jammer 1-dice exchange is incredibly risky, but it allows for cool and interesting use of Repeaters, Pitchers, etc. to engage the Jammer from outside ZoC. I think that's an interesting interplay that enriches the game. I don't think it's particularly efficient compared to more direct methods of attacking, but I'd welcome it into the game.

    By the way, here's a tool noone's mentioned yet:

    Run a cheap irregular warband up the table using Impetuous and Regular Orders only; don't spend their Irregular. Send your warband at a Jammer. Since Irregulars Orders aren't part of the Order Pool, you can still spend them while Isolated. So you can run the warband close, manuever for LoF, get Jammed, and still have an Order left to press the attack with CC or Chain Rifle. Jammers don't stop Irregular units in their tracks, so Irregulars are a great tool for hunting. Works really well with stuff like Hunzakuts, Libertos, etc too.
     
    #139 barakiel, Jul 30, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2019
  20. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    Wait for it ... We'll get an answer from someone saying not all factions have access to a cheap irregular unit. Or that a 26% chance of getting isolated is the same as a 100% chance of losing your model entirely.

    People,
    No matter what faction you play, basic tactics and the ability to exploit at least one method of removal or avoidance is enough.
     
    #140 oldGregg, Jul 30, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2019
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