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What if Jammer's Isolation was persistant only in Jammer's ZoC

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by eciu, Jul 5, 2019.

  1. Kraken1130

    Kraken1130 Well-Known Member

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    Ignoring "git gud" and balance for a moment, they're simply just not fun to play against. Not to say that amazing solo pieces like TAGs and Swiss Guards should have free reign over the table, but it's no fun when a piece you cannot get to can shut down a large chunk of the board in a way that linked Kamau snipers and TR bots simply can't. It becomes extra unfun the moment you include wide Jammer fields provided by Ghazi that can very easily ensure that your expensive, non-Veteran pieces cannot cross the midline.

    That isn't particularly fun to me. To have a unit that, in a game where you risk eating a crit every time you engage in a firefight, can accomplish a lot more at very little risk while often ignoring a lot of core gameplay mechanics that tend to keep other, equitable pieces in check isn't really that enjoyable an experience to play against even if its impact on the competitve scene is marginal or overstated by forum users.

    Replacing Jammers with E/Marats and/or E/Mitters would keep their role very much alive and remove a lot of frustration from Jammers while still giving their users some utility out of those profiles in a less meta shifting, likely more fun, way.

    Edit: replaced "shouldn't have free reign" with "should have free reign" because I realized there was a double negative.

    Made paragraph 2 less run-on-y and more coherent.
     
    #101 Kraken1130, Jul 30, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2019
  2. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    This is the message I'd like to drive home. Glad to see others agree.

    While this is a totally acceptable response, it is also opinion.

    To the previous point; some folks find crits as not very fun either. Every game is going to have a couple elements that some people like less than others. A really easy solution is to simply chat with your friends and maybe house rule some things you really don't like. Personally, I think infinity is the most balanced skirmish game I've played and I enjoy spending time getting matches in with friends/locals. My group hasn't felt the need to house rule anything for infinity, but we've done so with other games when needed.

    I've traveled around the world and had the privilege of playing with some great guys - I honestly hear more groaning about the Kamau sniper and Dakini link than anything else right now. These complaints about jammers just feel so anecdotal. I'd hate to see a new player assume there isn't anything to be done when they see it across the table because a group of whiners on the forum keeps hollering that they're OP. Its bad for the community and therefore the game as a whole.
     
    #102 oldGregg, Jul 30, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2019
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  3. SpectralOwl

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    Jammers are full of rules gotchas and best countered at the listbuilding stage with advanced knowledge of their existence. A new player probably won't be able to do anything against them without a healthy dose of beginner's luck or very favourable terrain. Forum whiners are the last of your problems if you're playing Jammers into completely new players.

    It's important to stay positive, and Infinity still is a great game, but unless noise is made about a mechanic that a lot of people don't enjoy then that feedback won't find its way back to the rule-makers. There's no Like or Dislike button on Army or the OTM, so the forums are the best place I know of to get that feedback heard by people who can make an official difference.
     
  4. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    Agreed, but that sentiment goes for a lot in this game. Eventually you have to learn though and you'll have to ditch the handicap.

    100%

    I disagree that there are a lot of people who don't enjoy this. A small group of forum users - namely ones who are very active and known for their complaining - does not constitute a sufficient sample size. Nor should those influence the mentality of individuals new to the game/forum.
     
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  5. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
    Warcor

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    Just speaking a bit about the mechanics involved here:

    Jammer's one of the game's few weapons that simply don't work vs units with certain rules. They have hard-built counters.

    Chance of a Jammer ARO isolating a model using Camo: 0%

    Chance of a Jammer ARO isolating a model using Stealth: 0%

    Chance of a Jammer ARO isolating a model with Veteran: 0%

    Units that have Jammers are also very clearly designed with a certain gameplay progression in mind. They, universally, start out inside (or close to) the owning player's DZ. They start the game protecting armies with a focus on 1-Wound, medium-cost troops, which are naturally the most vulnerable to Chain Rifles, backline hunters, etc.

    From there, they need to actively advance to the midfield to achieve relevance. And this is where playing the game becomes important: using your own area denial tools, anti-camo tools, strong AROs, etc. are critical to stop the Jammers moving into a position where they have the most effect on the game. If you're letting Jammers dig into the midfield, you're failing to play to the mechanics of the opposing army. It's a failure that's just as predictable as letting Yuan Yuan plow through your DZ, or getting crushed by 11 order Achilles, or losing your LT to an Impersonator. These are strong mechanics too, but they're not insurmountable.
     
  6. Ankaa

    Ankaa Well-Known Member

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    I was browsing the forum incog and logged in specifically to like this post. I've never read a more eloquent summation of what makes Jammers strong yet flawed and ultimately fair. I also want to add that Ghazi while incredibly strong, cannot play a surgical game. Since they are Extremely Impetuous your opponent always knows the general direction they are going and can lay a death trap accordingly and killing them in the active turn is a cakewalk. Again, while I love fielding them I think they are easier to counter than they are to employ.
     
  7. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Spec fire isn't available for all factions, taking normal roll BTS hits is bad even if you're BTS 6, because then you're probably valuable enough that being Jammed would be a serious hit, super-jump isn't available to all factions, not all factions have cheap AD, and stealth doesn't work because you have to actually interact with the objective.

    Oh yeah, and Reset is irrelevant because you can't reset + push button.
     
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  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    You wut, mate?
     
  9. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
    Warcor

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    Right on. Your point about Impetuous is a very good one. Baiting enemy Impetuous used to be a very established and often-discussed tactic, but I think it's taken a backseat because the newer Sectorials aren't as Impetuous/warband centric as older armies.

    Using Turn 2 to drop a cheap rifle AD in behind the Mutts, pot-shotting any of them you can see, and then making them all zerg in a different Impetuous direction than texpected is still one of the cleanest ways I've seen for messing up a bunch of Jammers.
     
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  10. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Until they actually interact with an objective, then they have to handle the Jammer. Veteran also isn't distributed evenly between factions.

    VIRD can get up there in order count, and TJC has good HI. I don't think they were clearly designed with much in mind other than being powerful.

    The amount of times I've seen a Zulu-Cobra or Heckler crawl along an inaccessible rooftop to cover an objective gives that the lie.
     
  11. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I also think that good players have gotten better at not letting their Impetuous troops be baited.
     
  12. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    Plenty of things aren't available to every faction - this is an extremely weak argument.

    Great reply to a well thought-out post. Oh wait ...

    @barakiel this argument has been made several times, though I think you said it better than any I've seen recently. @Ankaa makes a great point that also has been made before. The problem I see is that this small group of noise makers will continue to ignore these points and troll around. I've had quite a few friends leave the forums because of nonsense like this.

    Either way, thank you both for restating these points. Very valid.
     
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  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    No, it's a worthwhile argument, because it shows that thought wasn't put into actually giving other factions counters to Jammers, they're just expected to deal. Or not run expensive troops.
     
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  14. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    Can you name any weapon that actually do anything vs these?

    Just because a Jammer doesn't work on these, doesn't make it a design choice, literally no weapon in the game works vs these. Using them to justify the Jammer's design space is a fallacy.
     
  15. Ankaa

    Ankaa Well-Known Member

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    While I think this is a little dismissive to the points made I will admit that as Jammers proliferate in the game, the Jammer conversation does need to become more nuanced. "Jammers" used to mean "Ghazi" but of course this is no longer the case. Things like perimeter weapons, mines and MSV2 clean up Ghazi easily but Cobras and Hecklers do demand a somewhat different solution set based on the chassis that's carrying the offending equipment.
     
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  16. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    Double post
     
    #116 oldGregg, Jul 30, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2019
  17. Ankaa

    Ankaa Well-Known Member

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    This statement is empirically correct but I don't see how it refutes the point that was made. I can't think of a weapon that interacts with markers either but...that doesn't change the fact you can absolutely use a camo troop to slip by a Jammer, and over 90% of armies have access to marker state. The only one that comes to mind for me that doesn't is MAF and those troops are almost entirely Veterans!
     
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  18. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    While I agree with your point, i'm going to be that guy...
    Any SSL2 trooper with a weapon can affect stealth troopers;
    These not count strictly as weapons per se but Explode L1 and Sat-Lock can also interact with CAMO revealing+damaging/targeting them.
     
  19. SpectralOwl

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    We'll never know if lots of people like/don't like something unless they raise their voices, so while this is a valid point it is important to remember that there may be more out there on both sides of the debate who haven't said their piece yet.

    Also, weirdly enough, the general negative attitude and questioning that goes on here about things that upset certain players is actually extremely useful for learning about the rules and strengths of varying units/factions. I'd have no idea about stuff like how to identify Camo Markers' identities, repelling Warbands or fighting Varuna's weirdly OP defense without years of additional play if I couldn't count on select individuals vocally discussing, critiquing, analysing and hypothesising over the game's most complex and powerful mechanics over hundreds of pages.
     
  20. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Main_Page is a great resource for learning about the game. You should absolutely check it out.

    To name a few, in case you don't want to look yourself:
    Flame throwers (2 varieties)
    Missile Launcher
    Smart Missile Lancher
    Mines (Several Varieties)
    Grenades and Grenade Launchers (Several Varieties).
    ^All of these weapons can interact with camo markers.

    As ninja'd above, SSL2 troopers are available in all sectorials and can also interact with any weapon.
     
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