1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra Política de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

What if Jammer's Isolation was persistant only in Jammer's ZoC

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by eciu, Jul 5, 2019.

  1. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2018
    Messages:
    1,160
    Likes Received:
    988
    Seeing as how plenty of tournaments are won by factions without access to jammers, I don’t think they’re nearly as much of a problem as a few forumites think they are. Playing against them the first time may be eye opening, but then you learn to adjust - just like everything else in this game.
     
    daboarder and A Mão Esquerda like this.
  2. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,804
    Likes Received:
    1,746
    Hardly anything is as bad as the forum makes it out to be.
     
    oldGregg likes this.
  3. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2017
    Messages:
    963
    Likes Received:
    1,995
    I think part of their incongruity is their superiority to hacking devices for use against enemies in roughly the same circumstances, yet cost next to nothing and don't have KHD vulnerability.
     
  4. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,562
    Likes Received:
    4,434
    Well, then the intra-faction balance of those factions is pretty bad, since Jammers are so good, everything else must be such trash. Nerf Jammers and give those factions buffs elsewhere.

    The "learn to adjust" is oftentimes just not taking expensive pieces that can swing a game by being Jammed. Make sure to take cheap infiltrators, so that the Jammer-bearer can't fuck up your entire gameplan by Jamming your one infiltrator. It's meta-deforming.

    I could have said the same thing about Assault Hacking Devices, but then they introduced Killer Hackers. Jammers are more powerful (and cheaper) than AHDs, so where is the Killer Hacker for Jammers?
     
  5. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,562
    Likes Received:
    4,434
    They're a 1-stop shop for a solution to SF mode gunfighters (Since Isolated turns off SF Mode, for some reason), rambo pieces, objective grabber, and enemy camo infiltrators due to Intuitive Attack. It's one thing that does far too much, and the troops that have them have plenty of other utility. If the troops that bore them didn't have smoke grenades (*cough*), weren't camo themselves, didn't have direct template weapons, or any of that crap, it might be interesting, but as it stands it's just an unfair defensive/offensive tech that's only saved by the incompetence of the player piloting them or whether your faction is blessed with Veteran L1.

    It comes off like in playtesting someone who was a massive Haqq fanboy just kept buffing Ghazi because they couldn't win games without the crutch, and then later they worked on VIRD and TJC and couldn't figure out how to make a good sectorial without their OP crutch.
     
    theradrussian likes this.
  6. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    2,862
    Likes Received:
    3,821
    While typically true, there are a few missions where running into any of the factions with Jammers (or biotech equivalent) is just as bad as people make it out to be.
     
  7. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,804
    Likes Received:
    1,746
    Meh. It takes the wrong mission against the wrong faction in the hands of the wrong player, a confluence of factors that, while annoying, is rare enough that I stand by the previous statement.
     
  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,562
    Likes Received:
    4,434
    Sometimes it's entirely reliant on the skill of the player using the Jammer.
     
  9. SpectralOwl

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2018
    Messages:
    534
    Likes Received:
    842
    While the issue certainly is exaggerated by the forum, the ability of Jammers to shut down an opponent's play in certain matchups is a serious problem that makes the game less enjoyable and competitive. Since they're serious area-control threats with as much ability to shut down armour as a Missile Launcher, I'm kind of surprised that nobody's raised the idea of just lumping Jammers with an SWC tax like literally everything else with that kind of ability. If Zouaves are somehow worth 0.5 SWC, Ghazi, Hecklers and ZC should certainly be paying for their power out of the HMG budget too.
     
  10. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    2,862
    Likes Received:
    3,821
    Indeed.

    If, as it has been argued, the SWC cost on Assault Hacking Devices is a reflection of their ability to cripple heavy and assault units (or, those which are hackable anyway) then Jammers most certainly should be paying the same cost.
     
  11. emperorsaistone

    emperorsaistone Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2017
    Messages:
    579
    Likes Received:
    559
    A lot of interesting solutions here, but I have some to add to the pool to:

    While not thematically accurate, I think Jammer bearers should be targetable by Sword programs. The KHD could still lose the FTF and get Isolated and you need a lot of orders to get there most of the time, but that would be a real counter.
    Alternatively (and thematically far better) make them Targeted for the entire game. Makes the Speculative Shots withs LGL less order intensive.
     
  12. Sedral

    Sedral Invincible Officier

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    439
    Likes Received:
    709
    Well, a jammer is mostly a defensive tool, so while it might stop your opponent from scoring, it doesn't necessarily make it easier for you score. To be fair we'd need a lot more data, like the average number of objective points scored by/against the factions with jammer, to determine how impactful they really are.
     
  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,071
    Likes Received:
    7,605
    People defending Jammers: "This doesn't make unskilled players win more, it's fine"
    People attacking Jammers: "This makes skilled players win more than it should, it needs adjusting"
    It's a high skill floor and very high skill ceiling tool, and as an experienced player I'm no longer concerned about skill floors, I'm concerned about skill ceiling. Skill floor is a design choice to create an accessible or inaccessible faction, skill ceiling is what makes or breaks balance.

    Also it fucks with core game design of meaningful AROs by not penalising you to make use of No LOF trait. I think equating it to Hacking Devices and slapping SWC tax on them is the most meaningful way of tackling the issue. Inferior ISO doesn't alter its strength in a meaningful way since you can't dump Orders into an important unit to Reset (and since you can simply ARO Jammer to FTF the single Reset action, not to mention all Jammer models are typically very passive models)
     
    AdmiralJCJF and Hecaton like this.
  14. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2018
    Messages:
    1,160
    Likes Received:
    988
    lol - you must be the sole voice of reason then, eh? We've discussed this at length in the past and came to the conclusion you've refused to learn how to improve your game-play to compensate. The examples you gave as to why jammers are bad were along the lines of, "People I play against are better then me and happen to sometimes use jammers so I'm going to shout on the forums that they're broken until I don't ever have to see them again." That would be like me saying Joan is the most broken unit in the game because I occasionally lose to my buddy who happens to sometimes run her.

    Jammers are fine. If you really have so little fun playing the game, there's plenty of others you could try.
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,071
    Likes Received:
    7,605
    Most of that discussion took place in your head as the rest of your post attest to, you are filling in a lot of information I never provided. Please stop claiming stuff about me that I never wrote.
     
  16. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2018
    Messages:
    1,160
    Likes Received:
    988
     
    barakiel likes this.
  17. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,072
    Likes Received:
    2,106
    Jammers in concept are good, I like what they add tactically to the game.

    However, they’re essentially a permanent mobility kill to any unit, in ARO, without LoF. This disproportionately punishes expensive units and continues to push metas to cheap spam.

    They come with little risk, almost no counters, and they’re aren’t many ways for a player to counter play in many scenarios.
    Eg. heckler jammer on roof near objective. What’s your counter to that oldgregg? Just hope you have veteran? Guess I should shelve Yu Jing then with exactly 1 troop with veteran ands it’s the Ava 1 krakot.

    Infinity at its core is a game about choices, pros and cons. There isn’t a single con to having a jammer, it’s cheap, it doesn’t replace your primary weapon to limit rangebands. It doesn’t increase your vulnerability, say to hacking.
    It can reveal camo from out of LoF and simultaneously mobility kill them. Units pay through the nose for sensor which is pretty much worse.
     
  18. Wyrmnax

    Wyrmnax Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2017
    Messages:
    369
    Likes Received:
    439
    The No LOS on jammer is what screws things up.

    Force them to have LOS and suddenly they are manageable.

    The problem with them is that they are non-interactive. JJammer on a rooftop? You are screwed. Behind the door? You are screwed. Haqq adds insult to injury by having them in a profile with Dogged, Smoke, DTW and E/M. Take any one of those things away from a Mutt and it would STILL be worth taking 4 of them.

    Hekaton makes a good point when comparing it with AHDs. AHDs are much less effective than jammers, and yet they had to receive a counter because they were making the game unplayable if they could affect you. Jammers are AHDs that get to use its best program against any target, without minding restrictions of the target being hackable and what not.

    It is much more acceptable when jammers are found on more expensive pieces than Ghazi, but even then the problem of non-interactivity persists. It is telling that every time I bring a Heckler without a jammer I feel like I shouldn't have done so.

    Also, anedotical evidence, one of my most common adversaries play Haqq. That made me almost completely ditch AD from my lists, because if there are jammers around objectives / drop zones then it is simply not worth to even attempt to drop anymore.
     
  19. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2018
    Messages:
    1,160
    Likes Received:
    988
    Well you see, the answer will depend on the faction you play, but you have several options:
    Spec-fire
    Anything with decent BTS can walk past it and ignore the jammer with little concern.
    super-jump + Shoot from outside 10"
    Cheap AD like a Bashi or yuan yuan
    Stealth
    All else fails? Reset - because you'll likely pass the roll.
    Also, the fast panda on that unit requires LoS, so if it isn't prone, why haven't you shot it from range already? Any situation where you haven't is because the jammer isn't blocking an essential lane.

    Honestly? Most games I see people bring jammers in has one of two things happen:
    1. They play a bit more defensively, allowing you to play the mission without concern - because wile one or more jammers will be blocking, lets say a route up the middle, you can circumvent, or take out the supporting list pieces that are actually causing problems until the jammer unit has to move to remain effective - then you just aro kill. If they leave it on a roof or a building, chances are there will be other angles of opportunity.
    2. They play aggressively with ghazi allowing you to bait and trap just like you would against any other aggressive player.
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  20. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2018
    Messages:
    1,160
    Likes Received:
    988
    Anecdotal evidence isn't a case for change. One of the best parts of infinity (IMO) is list building. If you play with folks who run the same thing every time, it should be very easy to develop a counter strategy with little effort.
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.