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What if Jammer's Isolation was persistant only in Jammer's ZoC

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by eciu, Jul 5, 2019.

  1. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, and a 600W microwave oven can do that. Have you ever put steel wool in a microwave? Or seen what happens when a microwave gets worn out and throws a lightning bolt across the inside?

    Lots of power involved, sure, but less battery-sucking than you'd think.

    Edit: It is still probably a good idea from a balance perspective to limit the shots in a Jammer, though!
     
    #41 Section9, Jul 6, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2019
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  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    No, I have never destroyed my car's radio by putting steel wool in my kitchen microwave oven.

    Sticking something in a contained space designed to focus the waves on it is one thing, applying it through reinforced concrete walls some 30 meters away is another, particularly when the targeted device has been reinforced to withstand higher amounts of E/M than a typical consumer device - all the while the device causing this a) is hand-held and b) isn't frying the user's or anyone else' eyes.
     
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  3. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Badly applying real life physics to Infinity tech several hundred years ahead seems like a bad foundation to base an argument on.

    But heck what do I know.
     
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  4. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    Just have isolation be resettable.
     
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  5. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
    Warcor

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    I've seen this suggested a few times, so I want to make sure I'm clear on the idea.

    My unit, active turn, walks into Jammer ZoC.

    Jammer declares his ARO, is successful. My unit is isolated.

    It can no longer spend/receive orders.

    But if it Resets as an ARO, or uses its single "irregular" order next turn to pass a Reset roll, it can clear the Isolation?

    Is that the suggestion?
     
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  6. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Yes.

    Although I think there should be something to provide the player more agency on passing the roll. Such as command token use, or a specific exception to allow regular orders to be used for reset. Maybe just turning the unit irregular for ISO-1 state is simpler. ISO-2 puts them in their own combat group.

    Any reset would also be FTF with the jammers. So it’s a massive order tax.
     
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  7. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
    Warcor

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    Right, the Reset option to clear Isolation doesn't sound particularly friendly unless there's another mechanic for helping to pass that roll. Because having to give up AROs to attempt a reset... or getting a 1-order chance at passing the WIP roll next turn... Don't necessarily sound very forgiving. I feel like I would still want to try and use an Engineer to clear the Isolation, because it's going to be quicker and more reliable.
     
  8. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
    Warcor

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    It'd only be quicker and more reliable if you have an Engineer, and that Engineer is within an order or two.

    And no matter what, being able to Reset out would still be better than things are now.

    And you could STILL bring over the Engineer if you wanted to.
     
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  9. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    Works fine how it is tbh. Bring veterans or some BTS, problem solved.
     
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  10. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    1. BTS doesn't solve the problem
    2. not everyone has access to troops with the veteran skill

    while having an engineer come along and fix it may be quicker, and more reliable, it is more order intensive. having more options to deal with something is never a bad thing. Also you aren't giving up ARO's, you aren't being forced to reset, you just have the choice to reset should you feel it is your best option.
     
  11. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    You're right, it's not great, but it would at least give us another option that isn't out of the line with everything else in the game.

    No it doesn't.

    No it isn't.
     
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  12. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    Sure it is.
     
  13. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    Nuh-uh
     
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  14. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    Yup. If you don’t agree it’s probably because you just don’t know the truth.
     
  15. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    Oh look, a Haqq main is here to tell us his crutch isn't OP. While also attacking others for "not knowing the truth" (of I presume the haqq scripture that says "Jammer not OP, use all the jammers"?)

    The truth is it's a low-effort thing that anyone can brainlessly mash at their enemy, and defines the meta of the game. In a negative way.

    I like the resetable change the most, or the introduction of ISO1/ISO2 states (whatever those may be).
     
  16. spears

    spears Well-Known Member

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    I'm still in favour of making the no lof aspect function like an actual intuitive attack, so long skill only or at least make it require lof in aro.
    That and just flat out remove them from Gazi.
     
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  17. Kraken1130

    Kraken1130 Well-Known Member

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    What I'm about to say is nothing new, but yeah the problem isn't jammers as a concept - I think they're good, interesting pieces of equipment that add some depth of capability to a lot of units. The problem is Jammers being readily available on a 5pts throwaway unit that generates 2 orders for itself and has access to smoke, a chain rifle, e marat, AND jammer.

    Now, Isolated as a state is another story entirely because it can easily allow a model worth sometimes 1/3 (Ghazi temporarily excluded) the value to shut down, in a pretty frustrating way, a unit integral to your gameplan and not every faction can just "throw vets at it" or "have good BTS" because... well, not every faction has access to that, or access to that in a format that makes sense to field in a remotely viable list (like, come on, taking Zhayaden in Ramah?). Because even if Jammers feel more "right" on units like Hecklers and Zulu Cobras, it's still pretty easy for them to park up prone on a rooftop somewhere and deny a 16" chunk of the board at an extreme expense of orders to remove. And yes, this game is chock full of ways smart players can trade up and have a cheap unit in the right place remove something worth substantially more than itself, but with Jammers and Isolated it doesn't feel quite as earned. You didn't set up a Repeater network or sneak your hacker up within ZoC of your target. Didn't outflank your opponent or stack mods in your favor. You used a cheapo troop in a suicide rush (or in a giant board sprawling jammer zone if you took 4 Ghazi) or your guy parked on a rooftop was right over the objective so there was no way around him.
     
  18. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    upload_2019-7-27_7-56-22.jpeg
     
  19. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Yup, the "dude with jammer on a rooftop with no access" is some bullshit. It's a big part of the reason why Jammers as a mechanic are a problem, it's not just Ghazi.

    Just delete Jammers and give everyone who had them E/Marats as a consolation prize. It's not like the concept artists can tell the difference anyway.
     
  20. Kraken1130

    Kraken1130 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, Emitters and Emarats seem to fulfill the role of Jammers without twisting and warping some core game mechanics and causing nearly as much frustration.