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What if Jammer's Isolation was persistant only in Jammer's ZoC

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by eciu, Jul 5, 2019.

  1. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    @Weathercock, yes, I know that. My point is more on the side of reset doing all of that at once even in aro

    @Mahtamori, I understand yout point. But is not that shaking those statuses is easy as they are to put on. Shacking them is much easier, much less order consuming, and failing has no penalty (is like if automedikit could be used as aro and failing had no effect). And upon all of that, those statuses are not so crippling to be need a so easy option, which makes them usually a waste of effort.

    @Hecaton, my point was that you don't know nothing about my meta. If you want to read something is not written, is not my fault.
     
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  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    @Armihaul I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here. I don't want to get into a long argument over it (you've had more than enough of it already), but it seems like those effects are still strong enough to marginalise the targets of those programs.
     
  3. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    You are right there. And here is not the topic about those effects. Sorry
     
  4. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    Well, that was a rollercoaster of wrong.

    So yeah....N4 plz fix?
     
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  5. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    You're right, I don't know who you play with. Do they find Reset to be a stifling element of the game too?
     
  6. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
    Warcor

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    Jammers.

    N4 plz fx JAMMERS

    Not reset.

    Possibly even USE reset as PART of the fix for Jammers.
     
  7. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Jammers having intuitive attack, and being the only non-template weapon in the game to have that property, is absolutely mind boggling to me.
     
  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    How else were the factions with Jammers supposed to neutralize infiltrators, without needing LoF, and at no risk?
     
  9. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Well, when you have such piece of equipment only on more expensive units, those can be seen as specialized tools to remove big stuff, something opponent paid good points for. People will have less problems with one of more expensive pieces disabling another. Not so much when your operators are cheap and spammable.
    And that becomes a problem when you have to spend way more orders walking in and resetting, or walking long way around until you get LoF than you would've spent trying to put down a TAG (something that supposedly pays loads of points for staying power) using a rifle. When you look at it that way, cost becomes an issue no matter what piece you try to use against jammer carrier.

    As for elite models having only marginally better protection against certain things - indeed, but again, if such things were not available on cheap stuff, it would look okay that they can remove heavy units while using same means against cheap stuff would be seen as inefficient (which it usually is unless it's ARO).
     
  10. SpectralOwl

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    Yep. Agreed. If Speculative Fire (literally guesswork with ballistics) can't target markers, how do Jammers get away with it? They really do far, far too much given the platforms they appear on. They're certainly interesting rules-wise, but cut out much of the interaction that makes Infinity fun. Being counted as Comms Equipment, Disposable or any one of the 60+ decent ideas in this thread would make them more enjoyable to play against because of the improved actions/reactions available. I can see the reasons for defending them, and even why they should remain at their current power level, but at the very least they should be less unbearably dull to fight.
     
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  11. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    Yeah, the longer this conversation goes on the more I think that the answers should be:

    1: Jammers are Comms Equipment

    2: Remove the Intuitive Attack trait

    3: Allow Reset out of Jammer Isolation

    That would allow Jammers to continue to do EVERYTHING their defenders have argued for in this thread, while still dialing the frustration of facing them back a LONG way.
     
  12. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    That sounds like a pretty good fix.
     
  13. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    Reset as far as I know also gets malus in some situation for example eraser? And you can move before the dodge in active turn? Its a short skill so move-dodge works even in active turn?
     
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  14. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Their defenders don't want the counterplay of Blackout, and don't want to lose Intuitive Attack.
     
  15. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    If someone wants to spend orders hauling some repeaters into range of a jammer and then banging their heads against resets using one die with blackout only for their target to remain a piece that can still eat orders, trade, generate orders, use support gear or shoot stuff depending on unit type, they are welcome.

    Granted, it could be situationally viable. In most cases it'll be just a noob trap.
     
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  16. SpectralOwl

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    Funnily enough, Isolated itself also knocks out Comms Equipment. If Jammers were Comms Equipment, they could be shut down by E/M, Oblivion, Eraser and other Jammers.
     
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  17. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    Dodge in active doesn't allow to move, only in reactive (but you can move with a "move" order, of course). A successful resset allows a "fail guts" move even in active. Is optional (so you are not forced to do it if you are gonna end in really bad position), but if you are trying to not get in the enemy ZoC, fail and are forced to reset, you might be able to get out in that same order (if you win) and don't get a second round (which with dodge is impossible at the moment)
     
  18. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    ah thats what you meant, yeah in some situations that may be pretty useful
     
  19. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Well, not Oblivion. Not a legal target dor that one.
     
  20. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Blackout, however, will work just fine.
     
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