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What if Jammer's Isolation was persistant only in Jammer's ZoC

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by eciu, Jul 5, 2019.

  1. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    No, you're wrong regardless. When I hack my opponent and because I'm stacking a Tinbot and Kaleidoscope, they go for the Reset instead of a hacking attack, I'm generally pretty happy.
     
  2. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    Well, you have spent a lot in there, mostly more than 60 points (maybe more, the evo, the dude with the tinbot and the one hacking) and an extra order plus positioning. If the enemy is hacker, surely will use hacking, only those not hackers would go with reset. But then, after all that, any enemy can get safe easily thanks to reset. Be it a HI, LI when you try spotlight or anything else. Congratulations, you needed 3 troopers (maybe 2 in some cases like hollows), and more than 60 points usually to make a defensive hability not so useful. Really should be needed all of that? And in that situation, shouldn't be that called powerful?
     
  3. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    No and no. You shouldn't be able to spend one order to take out one of your opponent's troopers with no chance of a defensive roll.
     
  4. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    Who said nothing of "no chance of defensive roll"? I don't want out reset, just toned it down. A defensive roll? Of course, but not to get out of zoc in active turn, or not to take out states while deffending or not so free of use, or, or...just get out some of those "and" it has that I tryed to explain it and you ignore on purpose because it doesn't match your vision of the game
     
  5. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It's fucking fine as it is. You're the only person complaining about this, there are better TJC players than you who aren't complaining, so just can it.
     
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  6. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Is Dodge too powerful, then?

    Because both Dodge and Reset are the "I don't have a better chance to win this FtF any other way" last-choice ARO.

    Dodge still carries some penalties from hard-to-dodge things like flamethrowers or an attack from the back, but Reset doesn't have things that are equally obvious to cause difficulties to 'electronics-dodge' against.
     
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  7. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    Maybe it is ok. I just pointed why I think so, and you brought nothing but examples of fallacies to the post, like this ad verecundiam, or some previous ad hominem or strawman). But I will answer anyway

    Yes, there are a lot of TJC better than me, and also worse than me, and better players than you. So what? That has nothing to do with the topic. If now here comes Neil deGrasse Tyson and says "the earth is a donut because I say so" would make it correct?
     
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  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It has everything to do with the topic. Better players than you don't complain about Reset. If you find Reset to be too powerful, you need to get good.
     
  9. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    Dodge doesn't get out statuses, doesn't let you move in active turn on success, has malus in some situations, it even cannot be used in some others. Also, it has to face from 1vs1 to 5vs1 rols (not from 1 to 3 as much) and needs to deffend against more powerful weapons than reset, so their relative power against what are designed is different
     
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  10. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    Ok. Now you resort to the "git gud" argument. Seems this debate is finished.(maybe, just maybe, better players are happy with it because then they need to spend less in defense against those kind of attack)
     
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  11. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I mean, sometimes it's what you gotta say. I use hacking all the time in Onyx and I never feel stifled by Reset. Can't think of any other player who does either. You're alone on this one; perhaps talk to other players who find success with the hacking game and do what they do.
     
  12. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    What I've seen to all those people is that they directly don't try to hack offensively because they know is a waste of orders. Only KHD in active, or isolation/possession in aro. The other programs? A waste of time and orders. And even when they try, the easy use and the extra help to get out of zoc makes it absurd. Also, there are a lot of people that just forget the few extra advantages of reset so they don't use ir fully

    And lastly. The "git gud" is never, never, a good argument, specially if the other party has tryed to explain their reasons and you brought no true argument (only that you are right and so). It is a lack of respect and only shows that doesn't matter what people is gonna say, you are not moving from your I-know-all position. Try to explain why you think different for once, with real arguments, and try to understand what the others try to explain.
     
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  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I'm very aware of all the "advantages" of reset. I use KHD in active turn, I use AHD in active turn, I use regular HD in active turn, hell, I use B1 Exile from my EVO hacker in the active turn. Using the EVO hacker's re-rolls can oftentimes be clutch in that situation. Last tournament I was in I tossed a pitcher near an enemy hacker and hit him with a Brain Blast from my EVO hacker, and that won me the game because it stopped my opponent from completing his classified.

    It's totally a good argument. There are a lot of things in Infinity for which nothing can substitute for practice. You need to practice the game more, until you understand how to use things like the Hacking game in the face of reset. There are plenty of players who make the hacking game work for them in the face of Reset. Why can't you? It's clearly not because Reset is too powerful, since other people are making it work.
     
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I think what you might be missing is that the actions you use Reset against are an additional layer of attack. Having access to abilities that forces your opponent to Reset doesn't rob you of the gun (unless you're an EVO REM). And yes, Dodge has a few more situations where it gets a malus, but they're not very many and unlike with the attacks that you Reset against, if someone is attacking you with an attack you can Dodge at -3 then they'll typically be at -6 themselves (or your unit got outplayed and frankly deserves to eat those ARM/BTS rolls). This just doesn't happen with Hacking and an Intuitive Attack against a Marker with a Jammer doesn't even have a malus (making it a lot better than trying to Discover the target).

    Yes, Hacking Attacks are mostly used in ARO, but anyone who thinks Total Control or Spotlight are a waste of space may need to consider why you'd use these tactics and the fact that all non-Movement skills are one per order and a Hacking Device will have a metric tonne of options available so even a marginally useful Program that you only use every fifth game is not an issue if the device is proving useful with other programs. Also, sure Reset weirdly allows Guts Roll, but consider that this will probably mean the enemy will have to back off and out of Cover - use this tactically.

    Also, last but not least consider that a unit that needs to Reset to shake a status is spending an order to do so and will typically be standing close enough to get attacked by the same attack, resulting in a FTF or even more orders spent removing the threat before the attempt is made.
     
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  15. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    @Mahtamori, you have a point there. But the status shaking for reset is one of those extra quirks that are a bit off. It doesn't need to be on their turn, just move someone near him (for example the move the repeater far from him) and he might be able to shake it for free. Also the move in active on success (something lot of people just forget about and can have a great impact), if dodge could use it, I'm pretty sure people would be saying that it would need nerf. The problem for use it tactically is that it happens in the enemy turn, is an extra help to get out of zoc. It can delay or advance him, but will make him require one less order to get out of danger. The aro player has not much to decide in there

    @Hecaton, I must insist. The "git gud" is a fallacy, and its rude on top of it. Is as if I tell you "learn to read" after all your change of other people's words. You don't know against I might play. Also, maybe in my meta people know better the use of it and might have more inpact in the game, and that's why I could think you have biased view. But as I said, is futile against someone who read what they want.

    At least other people are bringing real reasons and we could get somewhere
     
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  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    WTF no. This would not affect much in the game. You have an apprehension of the rules and the game that has very little to do with reality.

    Are you claiming that other people in your meta think Reset is overpowered or just you? Because I have a sneaking suspicion it isn't anyone else, and you're upset that your hacking is not just a one-shot button to isolate or possess an enemy TAG.
     
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  17. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Armihaul, you do realize that hacking doesn't require LoF, right? Because the only way what you're suggesting could make any sense would be in a world where you required LoF like a BS attack.
     
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  18. Skyhusky

    Skyhusky Well-Known Member

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    So uh. *Tosses tunguska flavored popcorn in mouth* About those Jammers...?
     
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  19. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I am sure the arguments can be made in a calmer less argumentative manner.
     
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  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Well, yes. That's something you need to take into account when you choose to hack an opponent. However, your choice is most often going to be either [Nothing, Reset, Change Facing or Hack] or it's typically going to be [Nothing, Hack, Reset, Dodge, or Shoot]. If you don't have a Hacking Device, the action in Italic is removed. In the active turn, again you have the choice of Hacking or walking around the corner.
    So in contrast, a non-Hacker gets to choose between [Nothing, Reset, or Change Facing] when a HI is creeping on the other side of the wall, which isn't typically very good options since you're not forcing the HI to waste orders with those options.

    There aren't very many effects that you can shake through Reset, typically only effects that require no LOF to apply and where the victim either is a hacker themselves or can't threaten you in response. Stuff like IMM-2 requires LOF (Adhesive Launchers, Riotstoppers etc) or Speculative Fire (E/M Grenades or Stun Grenades, -6 malus) if they want to get the No LOF trait.

    So, what I'm saying is, the effects that you can shake easily (so to speak) through Reset are also easily applied, while the effects that are hard to get rid of are also harder or more dangerous to apply (except for Jammer and Oblivion). Arguably, Handelman's Core + X-Visor grenades also starts getting close to crossing the line to being "easy" to apply, but she's still limited to active turn only when doing that.
    (They also tend to have a time limit because they can be applied to a target who doesn't gets to threaten you with their FTF)