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What if Jammer's Isolation was persistant only in Jammer's ZoC

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by eciu, Jul 5, 2019.

  1. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Man, hand-coding Sarcasm Font is a pain in the ass.
     
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  2. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Over rated rule that is more of a crutch than anything glad we don't have it. TJC also has enough of a vet 1 order battery that LoL isn't that bad should you end up in that state.

    1. camo LTs is just lazy and brainless game play and you really should learn to protect them better, 2. Interventors have Cybermask which is enough to keep them alive.

    Transductors, Hollowmen, Reaktion Zonds, Lunokhods, Puppetmaster mine laver, FO puppets, Securitate feuerbach/Grenzer MSR, Hecker jammer/BSG, Feuerbach Tsyklons backed up by an EVO Salyut if you're desperate.

    TJC's ARO game is fine, You just dont want to contesting firefights from across the table, or every possible fire lane. It's more about close up point defense and only contesting the approach to high value pieces.

    Edit:
    TJC is more focused on active turn murder not making a swamp of death like vanilla Nomads, VIRD (Though nothing is as absurdly strong in ARO as VIRD), BJC, or CJC. So go out and kill the key threats first, TJC has plenty of great tools for this.
     
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  3. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    "is not so powerful"

    "a strong tool"

    You're not making sense.

    You're crazy. It's a very bad status effect to be put under.

    Reset too powerful? The action of last resort against comms attacks? Are you trolling?

    With your one order? Also, being Isolated prevents someone from entering SF mode. Probably because someone was upset their Jammers don't solve the problem of SF mode.

    The problem is when they can be taken out without needing LoF by a trooper that costs 1/20th of their points cost. Jammers are an important part of a game meta that strongly encourages hordes of expendable troops rather than small numbers of elite ones.

    No, Isolation is more frustrating than killing because it requires so much less effort than killing. All the factions with Jammers have access to big guns they can use to gunfight heavy units; they just also have this tool they can use to one-shot disable your troops (and camo tokens!) through walls.
     
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  4. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    Yes. Is crazy, right? A tool can be strong but not too powerful. Strong enough to do its job well but not too strong to make it autoplay. Like MSV2, akbar doctor, ODD. Sometimes the problem might be bot the tool, but the platform it is in, and sometimes is because people who tend to exaggerations, try to read those exaggerations instead of trying to read what in reality is there

    About reset. Yes, I think it's an absurd mechanic which was tested halfway and brings too much defense, forcing that if you want to go hacking, you need to spend too much for it, but that's for another topic. Is as if the dodge could remove states like unconscious, be done without malus even when there are previous status applyed, failure doesn't make it go worse, can be repeated without danger, gave an extra failing guts move on success (making it easier yo escape from the comms attack), and against coordinated orders you can use reset directly as a dodge, and is free for everyone.

    Isolation can be applyed by all factions (hacking or E/M). All can isolate, but the biggest guns are not in all factions (maybe I should refine what I mean: the high cd with good weapons that have easier to make kills, again, that is refered to the platform the weapon is in, not only the gun). And it can be also by hacking in ZoC with no LoS, or eveb using a repeater, and I'm pretty sure nobody is going to ask for a nerf in AHD or HD+ because of that. Again, the problem is the platform, it doesn't hurt on a 20+ points assault hacker, and I doubt it should hurt in a 21 point dude that cannot do mission, or do much more than isolate people, but hurts in a 5-point warband. If not, why is not people asking for nerf to pano, where they can even have it linked?

    And why cannot an isolated go to SF? He doesn't enter in isolation (he is in), so the cancelation clause doesn't apply here, and in SF there is no restriction when entering the state, also, you can be in more than 1 state... Isolated, imm1, burnt and unconscious, for example

    About TJC, yes, it has a some tools, of course, but its aro turn is not so great to compensate (BS13 with no malus to the enemy is not so great aro piece, and krizas has no good aro weapon, cannot ignore smoke to negate mision, if you go grenzers you will suffer bot from smoke and white noise/albedo), but they are so expensive with no order help that are more forced to spend their points on orderbots and will have not do much of all of the needed tools (and not much orders to do the job).
     
  5. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    I didn't read the 14 pages, but did someone mention the possibility for isolation by jammer to last only one turn ? (or 2 players turn maybe)

    It would retain it's speed bumper role by stopping a trooper but wouldn't be so crippeling and less useful as an offensive tool. Could go with a cost decrease of 1 or 2 pts for troopers having it (except Gazi that are juste too cheap right now).
     
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  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    It has been floated, yes. The figure mentioned was 2 turns (although Isolation doesn't actually do anything in the reactive turn).

    Cost decrease is impossible, the Jammer is too cheap and has no drawbacks to justify price reduction on the carrying model.
     
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  7. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Nah, I think you're just not making sense.

    If you think Reset (a defensive stalling tactic) is too good, you need to learn the game to a more finely-tuned degree. I assure you you are wrong.

    I'd definitely like to see Jammers be taken out of VIRD's arsenal too. The difference is that Hacking devices can't target, say, camo state skirmishers. Jammers can target almost anything in the game.

    Sure, but Isolated specifically says it cancels SF mode.

    Your argument seems to come down to "I don't have the MSV2 Kamau so my AROs are bad." Welcome to the pit with the rest of us. BS 13 in a fireteam is a good ARO.
     
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  8. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    Of course doesn't make sense to you. Not once in all this you are gonna admit, or even to try to understand, nothing that isn't right with your beliefs. I tryed to explain my reasons and arguments, but instead of arguments, you go strawman, ad hominem, asuming things, and so. Well, then I'm tired of that and simply, I will do as you. I will assume that you don't know how to deal with jammers and hacking, that's why you need so much to nerf the first ones, and a strong, easy to use, carefree defense against hacking.

    Just to make sure, you know that jammer cannot make objective a camo, the same as with hacking, right?

    Also, entering Isolated while on SF ('the trooper's state changes') is a cause of cancelation, not beign on isolated state (if you are in the status, that doesn't change so no valid reason to cancelation). Both in spanish and english.
     
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  9. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    No, no, no. I showed that your arguments were baseless, and you just can't wrap your head around that idea.

    Jammers have intuitive attack. Read the damn rules.

    I've never seen it played that way. Better ask a warcor, they tend to know better than the actual rules these days.
     
  10. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    Omg. You showed nothing. You only say that people is wrong and you not, and assume reasons after changing peoples arguments in different ways so it match yours

    Having intuitive attack means complete order, like with direct template weapons, mines or perimetrals if you want to apply it. You have to roll for it and might miss and do no more against that camoed dude. But now I suppose that we will need to nerf all those other intuitive tools because they can target also camoed troops. Also, remember that the most scary thing about jammers are their zone denial thanks to the aro, and they cannot aro a camo thanks to stealth

    Well. If you follow the rules by how warcors say, you will see some mistakes. They can do a great work, but thet are also people, and can be wrong. Look at the wiki instead (what I did, twice to make sure I was not mistaken) and see by yourself. But well, in the last interplanetario they did that to me and the judges ther sayd it was valid, if that is a valid argument (it is not, the wiki is)
     
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  11. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    This is incredible. I actually didn't believe an acquaintance when they told me that someone was arguing that declaring reset was overpowered. Bless this house.


    (For clarity I'm actually on board with jammers being probably basically fine as they are and a pretty textbook example of a piece of equipment that players struggle to adapt to, which subsequently gets labelled as a problem with equipment power rather than a problem with player adaptativity - but specifically arguing against reset as a skill is an amazing perspective.)
     
    #271 RobertShepherd, Aug 14, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  12. Musterkrux

    Musterkrux Well-Known Member

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  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Dude you think Reset is overpowered. Your assessment of the game isn't on firm ground here.

    Yeah, that's fine, but it's still something else that makes Jammers better than AHD's.
     
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  14. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    Well. I exposed why I think so. You could argue and tell me where I'm wrong, not only be a superior beign and tell so.

    Can be done almost always (that repeater put there for hacking wants to go other place? Reset). No malus even wen suffering status (you are isolated, imm1 and marked? Doesn't matter, no malus and take out one of them). Allows an extra movement on success even in active turn (dodge only in reactive). Remove statuses even when defending but a fail doesn't make it worse (as if failing to repair didn't meant okenextra wound). Can be used as dodge against coordinated orders. Is used agains attacks that have a more limited burst so by default are also less effective. And all of that against the 'most powerful' statuses (imm1, isolated, marked, none of them a null one, the only one really bad would be possessed). It makes too much things, do them easy, deffends from a lot of different options without the need of thinking

    Yes, it isn't a rule that makes you kill because it's a defensive one, but it's too good in defending both in active and reactive against too much things. Dodge is also a defensive tool and has more limitations, has situations where malus are applyed by itself and so
     
    #274 Armihaul, Aug 14, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  15. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Just a little side thought: things like Jammers, E/M, glue templates and the like, so notorious these days for making otherwise composed and civil people to go into full "CB balance" rant mode by just being mentioned, would be much less of a concern if heal/repair features in Infinity were actually practical outside of keeping a single mostly immobile fulcrum piece operational or making last turn "score by being alive" plays.

    But in the world where same kind of items can be found on both 5 and ~25 pts models it's really tough to assert that the actual problem is with specific piece of gear or ammo type.
     
  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @Armihaul Yeah, you're crazy. Reset doesn't let you retaliate. That's why it's not a good thing to be doing. If you're against reset, you're against the fundamental ethos of N3 in that "you always get a roll."
     
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  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I don't think so. Part of the problem is that expensive, supposedly durable units are oftentimes only slightly more resistant to these one-shot disable methods. Whether you see that as a problem with the gear/ammo or the units they're targeting is a matter of perspective.
     
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  18. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    Again you only read what you want to read. I don't mind the ftf roll. But look at dodge, the last defense against much deadlier weapons has more flaws for its use and there are situations were you have malus for using, reset doesn't. Also, if in active turn you move badly and are forced to dodge, you don't move even if you success, but with reset, you miscalculate a bit, do reset and if you win you can move in active to get out of that zone of control
     
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  19. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    None of these are reasons to think Reset is powerful. Nobody exposing their troopers to comms attacks is thinking "Oh boy, I get to Reset!" They're looking for where they left their KHD trooper. None of your statements are particularly convincing.
     
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  20. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    So only are powerful the attack tools? Is the only reason you are bringing. The ODD or TO are not powerful then?. No, people doesn't go thinking "great, i can reset", just are happy to know that those comms attack can be evaded easily with it, having reset for granted, if not, people would be asking for nerfs in hacking, not only for jammers.

    Maybe the problem was using "powerful". Whar should be the word for a defense too effective for its context? Defenseful?