1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

What if Jammer's Isolation was persistant only in Jammer's ZoC

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by eciu, Jul 5, 2019.

  1. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,470
    Likes Received:
    1,112
    Crazy, isn't it?
     
  2. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    3,394
    Likes Received:
    4,104
    However, it may be just crazy enough to catch on...
     
  3. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,205
    Likes Received:
    6,535
    Great! Casual play is unlikely to get accurate assessments of the power level of pieces compared to competitive play, however.
     
    ChoTimberwolf likes this.
  4. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,470
    Likes Received:
    1,112
    You know, that assestment is just a fallacy. You don't need to play chess tournaments to know that the queen is more powerful than the tower. The same can be applyed here

    You don't know against who or with which intent someone can do games
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  5. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,205
    Likes Received:
    6,535
    The valuation of chess pieces gets way more complicated than that. It even depends on the "meta," and different people have had different opinions.

    Everyone was saying that Tohaa weren't the most powerful faction (pre-OSS), and then when we got hard data, surprise surprise, they were the most powerful faction besides ALEPH and OSS. Tournament wisdom was pretty accurate on this one.
     
    Wyrmnax likes this.
  6. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,470
    Likes Received:
    1,112
    Don't mix concepts. Piece value and it's power are not the same. Here an extreme example: a mission where you need specialist to win can make a moderator hacker more valuable than a kriza, but that doesn't mean the moderator is more powerful

    Can you show, or tell me where to look at that data? Because I didn't see cb post anything never regarding power status of the factions, only in the summer campaings and the use of factions. Maybe I missed that
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  7. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    3,394
    Likes Received:
    4,104
    Occasionally they show ITS data (faction use, maybe unit use, etc) but they generally keep it close to the vest, as is their right.
     
  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,205
    Likes Received:
    6,535
    They're actually extremely closely related.

    It could actually mean that. "Aggressive" play is really about scoring victory points as emphatically as you can.

    Yeah, the pictures aren't loading anymore, but it's in @Teslarod 's post at the top of this page. It wasn't CB who posted it, but was accomplished by crawling the ITS site.

    It's their right, I suppose, but isn't conducive to a competitive wargame. In any case, the community (specifically the German community iirc) did the work.
     
  9. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,470
    Likes Received:
    1,112
    Good info. Thanks

    But I must insist, even if they could be related, value an power are different things. Cars and crash accidents are also related, but not the same. A kriza cannot push buttons, so if you need an specialist, the value of the moderator is higher, even if is one of the worst specialist the army can bring. On the other side, a daktari could be as valuable as the moderator or not, depending on positioning and so.

    Also, that thata shows that the factions that at that moment had jammer, were not so high up there. Maybe is not so broking, but needing it to be there?
     
  10. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,205
    Likes Received:
    6,535
    I think you're misunderstanding. In say, Comms Center, any specialist is "more powerful" a piece to score points than a Kriza. The only thing a Kriza can do is disrupt the opponent's ability to score points.

    VIRD was pretty high up there. In any case, it very much is an internal balance issue - are taking multiple Ghazis meant to be a requirement to play for vanilla Haqq and Hassassins? What does QK and Ramah get to make up the shortfall? I'd rather vanila Haqq and Hassassins get Jammers removed and get other things to make up the shortfall, because Jammers are such a bad mechanic. They are powerful, but strictly speaking they're a problem anyway.
     
  11. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,470
    Likes Received:
    1,112
    Well, I also think you are mixing value (in the meaning you put at the beggining with the chess pieces) and power (you will never see someone at the top change a pawn to a tower when thet can change it to queen) as concepts when they are different. We will not get anywhere

    Varuna might be so up there because other reasons. Actually, having so much difference should be an indicator, but nobody is gonna accept it
     
    oldGregg and A Mão Esquerda like this.
  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,205
    Likes Received:
    6,535
    The more powerful a piece is, the higher its value. This is very straightforward. Power rests in more than just the ability to attack your opponent's pieces.

    Might be. I was just pointing out that the 4th most potent sectorial has access to Jammers and uses them as a big component of its defensive game.

    It doesn't say anything about Jammers being a shitty mechanic. Or even power levels; the sectorials might just be crutching on them.
     
  13. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,470
    Likes Received:
    1,112
    That is not the meaning of value in the link you put before. Value is something that changes, be it because meta, missions or other factors, power not. Something is powerful or not if he can do its job or not. Kriza shots things down and do it better than many other units, a moderaror hacker has it hard to hack due to lack of powerful hacking programs, hard to get to the console, and low wip. One is powerful but non valuable, and the other valuable but non poweful. In the same theoretical scenario Mary problems would be both valuable and powerful.

    Also, yes, the sectorial can be bringin them down, or maybe the problem is the platform the jammer is in. In any both scenarios, nerfing the jammer is more nerfing haqyslam than pano. Why do the faction in worse position be nerfed? Maybe there are several things around jammer that should be fixed before touching jammer. That is jusr my point
     
  14. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,205
    Likes Received:
    6,535
    No.

    All it means is, how much does it hurt to lose? In Infinity this is equally applicable to pieces that complete the missions directly and pieces that attack your opponent's pieces. You're making up definitions out of thin air and telling me "not to mix concepts," which is entirely wrong. You're claiming a difference between the concepts of "value" and "power" that doesn't exist. Pieces have value because they are powerful. That's it.

    Well, the balance of the highest-performing pieces is the most important. If Haqqislam is a bit underpowered, but VIRD is overpowered, nerfing VIRD and Haqqislam to get VIRD under control is acceptable. But it's not that simple - Haqqislam is a more powerful faction than Vanilla PanO, and surely nerfing Jammers would hurt Vanilla PanO even worse?

    Like I said, though, Jammers are a bad mechanic that doesn't interact well with the rest of Infinity's rule system, regardless of power level. Just delete them and replace them with things that force users of Jammers to actually interact with their opponents.
     
    Wyrmnax likes this.
  15. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,470
    Likes Received:
    1,112
    "Relative strength in potential exchanges". That is the value, yes. You are the one that brought that definition here and is forcing its use in a different meaning now. My point is that the power of the piece in infinity and its value are different things, not its relative value, but its raw usefulness, something that is related with this forum topic and the jammer. You keep forcing in a definition of two different things as if they are the same. In chess, the value is for exanges, especially for IAs, but in all the different ways lf checking that value, the qween is ahead of everything else. Why? Raw power

    But even whith that, thinking about relative value and so. Jammer is needed there because all of the other things lacking. I wouldn't mind loosing jammer in the hecklers if I had some extra tools against warbands and smoke. But at the moment, there aren't

    Also, that argument about pano proves mine right. There are a lot of extra things out therd. 3 of the 4 pano sectorials are at the top10. Jammer can or cannot be the cause dor VIRD to be there, but if the other 2 are near, there should be chequed other reasons. Why then vainilla is so down? I dunno. But beign 0.15 lower than haqqyslam, while VIRD is more than 0.25 ahead anything related to haqqyslam might be a good indicator that jammer might not be a reason, if not, pano would also got a bit ahead
     
    oldGregg and A Mão Esquerda like this.
  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,205
    Likes Received:
    6,535
    Your "point" is incorrect. What value can a piece have besides its ability to win you games, either by completing the scenario objective or by disrupting your opponent's ability to do the same?

    Exactly. The queen has a high value because of her power. Which is exactly my point, and the fact that you seem dead-set on not acknowledging because to do so would be to agree with me.

    What tools against warbands and smoke do sectorials without Jammers have that TJC doesn't?

    No. No it doesn't. You're not being very coherent here. The power level of jammers doesn't necessarily say anything about the overall power level of the factions they're in.
     
  17. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,470
    Likes Received:
    1,112
    Ok, so now you are saying my original point is correct and telling me at the same time that I am wrong? I told you this:

    And then you brought the link about the relative value. Something used to create IAs or when trying to get a hold of the state of the game before is finished, and is afected by a lot of things. I admit that some players use it for the piece exange, but then, they usually do that with a lot of extra thing into account, even when they know they do "bad exanges", which has nothing to do with value or power, but positioning, tempo and other things. I tryed to explain why are not the same things, tryed to look at the thin relationship with the thread (because even in chess, are not the same) and your argument is just that I am wrong and that they are the same, when you even ended using my original argument. Seems a bit strange...

    And about being incoherent, maybe is my english, sorry. I tryed to show you that, using your "relative value thing in infinity", that trying to nerf something that is the only thing that could bring ahead of others, without fixing some other thing around it, is wrong. If jammets are so powerful and we take out jammers, haqqyslam is gonna be more affected than VIRD. And if its not the only thing, then is not so powerful when all of them (but VIRD) are so low in the table. If it were so powerful, and they don't need fix on other fields, they should be higher. But maybe, because the relative value now is noy relative but raw power in direct effect of the game, I might be wrong. In that case, more the reason to not nerf a mechanic, even if its a shitty one, because the problem is up there

    And about TJC, cheap warbands to deffend against other cheap warbands, midfield minelayers, or MSV2 against smoke are some tools those might have and TJC doesn't
     
    #237 Armihaul, Aug 6, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2019
    Modock and A Mão Esquerda like this.
  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    Points costs should reflect on the expected and the maximum value you can get from a unit relative to other units in the game. It is up to you as the player to maximize that value.

    Whether a unit is a specialist or not must have impact on its points cost, but a moderator hacker will never have as much expected value or maximum value as a Kriza. If it has more, then this is not a result of their value or worth, it is a result of good or bad gameplay, of the player's priorities.

    E.g. if you made a list entirely out if Krizas (ignoring AVA) and lose because you have no specialists, this is a choice by you as a player to ignore other values in game, but the price of the Kriza should never take these poor choices into account.
     
    oldGregg and AdmiralJCJF like this.
  19. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,205
    Likes Received:
    6,535
    It's not strange. My point is that players can disagree about the relative values of pieces, and they might have very good reasons for believing what they believe. Even in chess, which is a much more elegant game than Infinity, the relative value of pieces is contested.

    Onyx doesn't have those either, and I do fine without Jammers.
     
  20. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,470
    Likes Received:
    1,112
    Actually onix does have MSV2, in 2 troops...
     
    Modock, oldGregg and Abrilete like this.
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation