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What if Engage...

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Mahtamori, Dec 4, 2017.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    A moderator can kill a Ninja fairly reliably and this suggestion changes nothing of the fact, you just have to play by the correct range bands. For instance, a Spetsnaz with a Boarding Shotgun isn't the best person to round a corner at point blank range on for a Moderator - neither should a Ninja. Keep out of the 3" area.

    If your argument is that with Hidden Deployment this is impossible (which it wasn't but could have been if you'd addressed the threads arguments insteas of your assumptions about the thread) then I'm afraid the game is full of little things that just jumps up on you and you have to bite the bullet and make the best of a shitty situation (such as as couple of grunts boxing you in during Power Pack)

    Not sure about you, but I usually use HMGs to deal with long range ARO troops. Typically much safer and less order intensive.
     
  2. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    Oh it is definitely something I consider wrong with the game that has such an easy fix that I don't know why CB has not FAQed it yet.
    So much so I suspect most TO will rule against it on the spot.

    Your little 9pt moderator spends an order and walks out from around a building when suddenly out from hidden deployment the ninja declares an ENGAE ARO! Sadly this is about the dumbest thing the Ninja could have done here.
    The Moderator simply declares move as his next action and heads back to the building or some other suitable terrain within 5 inches. Due to the rules of engage the moderator is allowed to place the ninja however he likes so long as silhouettes are touching. This means the moderator is going to put the ninja on a wall where he will count as climbing and can now no longer defend himself from anything.

    Even Achilles is no match for the moderator if Achilles declares an engage ARO.
     
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  3. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    According to engage as written, a model who succeeds at an engage roll must be placed in contact with the base of the model it targeted. Somewhat limits the options to put the enemy climbing, though I suppose if you went prone and hugged a wall...

    As a TO I'd probably rule that you cannot place a model engaging yours in a climbing state unless you have no other option, but I'd make it clear before the tournament.
     
    #43 Hecaton, Jan 3, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  4. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    I am not fond of the idea that the cc stat gets to be used for engage. I find achilles to be exceedingly strong even with an engage of 15. At 24, most non cc monsters in the game can not be within 4 inches of him.

    What this means is that ending the active turn with achilles inside of a building would make him relatively impervious to pano as his ODD plus high CC would mean he has the advantage, not the active pano player.
     
  5. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    That is exactly how I would handle it as well.
    However it was ruled that your base is all of your silhouette, so maybe best named volume to volume now?
    There is more here on the topic.
    http://infinitytheforums.com/forum/topic/41020-climbing-plus-and-cc/
    IJW and Toadchild are in agreement that you in fact CAN stick that ninja to the wall but you should not do it and even going so far as to say they will house rule that nonsense.
     
  6. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Frack.

    Been getting that wrong for a long time.

    But assuming Kitsune passes her ph13, she Dodges all those attacks.

     
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Passes her PH 13 and beats those BS 8 rolls. She could also shoot at effective BS 14 and not have to get out of her entrenched position or risk misjudging 4". Or throw a smoke at PH 16.

    It is, again, an option not too dissimilar from other options but it is usually the worst option by a slim margin and almost no unit (except Pupniks) want to do it even if they're great at melee.

    @kinginyellow I find most buildings have windows or doors that can be used so that Achilles would not only be able to be shot without getting into CC, but also shot at without being able to claim cover. I do agree that it is a concern.
     
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  8. Ieldin Soecr

    Ieldin Soecr Well-Known Member

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    Engage follows the General movement rules of the Move Common skill. So you are not allowed to be placed on a wall unless you have climbing plus or there is a ladder. In that case I would play this rule as RAW, as this would stop the possiblility to be abused that way and the need for houserules.
     
    #48 Ieldin Soecr, Jan 3, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Except that we have a bona fide FAQ stating that a TAG (for example) can Engage into an Armoury (or any other building with only narrow access points). It would be nice and logical if the Engage movement would be limited strictly to a Move with infinite range, but seems such is not the case.
     
  10. Ieldin Soecr

    Ieldin Soecr Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, just wait until people notice that you can place models in midair that way with engage and let them drop to their death (Jump also follows the General movement rules like climb).
     
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  11. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    That is what I had hopped for as well. Sadly it is not the case.
    First we know climb also fallows the general movement rules. If you check that thread they talked about that as well. We also have official confirmation that you can stick someone on a wall. It's the ruling that base = any part of the silhouette is what allows anyone to do it when before you needed to be climbing yourself.
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    While I doubt that'd actually qualify as placing the model, I also am not sure a model is allowed to move (that is, fall) if placed in mid-air like that. Would that mean the model stays there until the enemy is dead (not just unconscious)?
     
  13. TriggerPuller9000

    TriggerPuller9000 Poverty Orde Wingate

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    Engage is fine as-is IMO. It's not a catch-all response that lets you murder anything within your Engage range - it's a specific response to certain opponents. Most times I've Engaged or been Engaged, the target of the Engage was a TAG with a template weapon and the Engage was an attempt to prevent it from firing again or advancing.

    For example, Maggy rounds the corner on a camo marker. Marker holds to allow Maggy to Discover since he is currently safe from attack. Maggy fails her discover, and declares Intuitive Attack with the HFT. Marker declares Engage to simultaneously avoid the attack and lock up Maggy.

    If the SAS had declared Engage as soon as Maggy popped the corner, Maggy could have lit him up with the HMG on 8s - in this case, Engage would not be an appropriate response.


    It's very situational, but I believe that in that capacity it is functioning as intended. The one change I would make is to the part about the opponent placing the Engaging model - I find this to be clunky, and it can potentially lead to some strange situations as highlighted above.
     
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  14. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    My only response to this is, "Why would you do that with your Maggie, then, knowing that it could potentially be tied up... and not even with a CC specialist?" Any random troop with a decent PH attribute could do the job.

    The fact that the skill is completely* dictated by the active player means the only situations the skill would be useful will likely be denied during a game with someone of equal skill.

    *Hidden Deployment not withstanding.
     
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    This risks compressing this into something completely different, but imagine this;

    Melee has increased native burst. ARO that's 1. Engage is done on the unit's new CC values:
    Shinobu and Mushashi has CC of 17
    Oyama, Oniwaban and Achilles has CC of 16
    All other Ninjas and Samurai, the most competent knights, the most competent Myrmidons and anyone else with 22 or 23 currently has CC of 15
    O-Yoroi and most CC skirmishers with a value of 20 or 21 has a CC of 14
    Keep reducing in steps of 2;
    Miranda, Pupniks and most TAGs have 13
    Moiras and Ayyar have 12
    Authorized Bounty Hunters and most Yu Jing LI have 11
    Nearly all other low cost LI have 10
    Anything below has unchanged values.

    Burst; (all are sandbox mode; assuming both active and reactive model are capable of fighting, has cover when relevant and chooses well-informed responses):
    Any increase in burst means that masters that used to be equal to each other (Shinobu vs Achilles) will land the advantage strongly in favour of the active player (Shinobu goes from 33% to 54% to 63% when active against Achilles while Achilles goes 33% down to 14%).
    Burst 3 is necessary to preserve Shinobu's rough kill rate against f.ex. Jotums or Fusiliers
    Burst 3 shifts equal footing several steps down; when defending Achilles no longer produces equal odds against Shinobu, but against Hsien.
    Burst 3 makes CC attractive for low-skilled models like Zhanshi when given opportunity.
    Burst 2 starts being advantageous compared to currently at roughly current CC 20 or below
    Burst 2 shifts equal footing one or two steps down; when defending Achilles no longer produces equal odds against Shinobu, but against an imaginary Miranda with MA3.
    Burst 2 makes CC attractive for mid-skilled models like Miranda Ashcroft when given opportunity. (And also more obviously Ayyar or Konstantinos)
    Martial Arts 2 probably becomes way too strong against stationary objects, Martial Arts 3 becomes silly strong, Martial Arts 4 becomes increasingly niche. MA2 changed to be equivalent of cover (fighting defensively) and MA4 changed to be all-out aggression of +6 CC could be interesting
    Martial Arts become overall more important
    Natural Born Warrior become more important as Martial Arts become more important
    Berserk and Assault become much stronger
    Last but not least, you really don't want to fight Shinobu or Mushashi in melee with any unit, 'cause they will match your burst and drag your CC value down to the level of a noob.

    Summing it up

    With reduced values, but still typically consistently higher values than PH, changing Engage to be a CC Special Skill would become much more reasonable. It would retain a distinct disadvantage for the reactive player with Shinobu at best engaging on 20% crit if MA4 is changed, but Engage has burst of 1 versus typically 3+ for the shooting enemy (who will typically be hitting on BS-3) though MA4 is not as good as it sounds. Melee becomes a very strong active turn ability for most units, though regardless of B2 or B3 units that are low-skilled but still has the prestige of paying for the increase from 10 to 11 will still feel short-changed. For a high-skilled CC monster, Engaging a low-skilled opponent can be a way of pacifying it and protecting your model but against a moderately skilled opponent you are probably better off playing it extremely defensively.
    For the most part, what determines a model to be a CC monster shifts from the actual CC value to whether the model has Martial Arts (and at what level), or any of the other CC Special Skills as a CC value of 14 is inferior to a CC value of 11 if the model with 11 has MA of any level.

    I am advocating B3 simply because I think the current power curve has such diminishing returns that comparing to current mid-lower values is futile. Yes, B3 is significantly stronger for the low skilled models compared to current CC, but you should be looking at their ability to shoot at which point it becomes much more reasonable - especially when considering that you're breaking cover and you're talking about a threat range that's typically 4" instead of 16".

    I have not considered Electric Pulse - it probably needs alterations.
     
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  16. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    So achilles at cc 16 with MA 4 and an EXP at dam 15 is b3?

    He becomes cc 19 (ma3) and hits 3 times causes even the jotum to die way faster.
     
  17. stargorger

    stargorger Well-Known Member

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    Enough with the Achilles hate lol. He's SUPPOSED to be a CC monster. Of course a big slow TAG should die to a small agile CC-focused TAG in...CC. *facepalm*
     
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  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Achilles was a mistake. This is not a fix to Achilles. (Seriously, though, Achilles was designed both in fluff and rules to be perfect with no drawbacks)

    This only increases the chance of the Jotum getting into Unconscious-1 from 25% to 35% - you're still going to spend 3 CC orders killing a Jotum in the majority of cases and you're going to be significantly weaker against the Jotum in reactive.
    That said, I did note that MA3 is causing some concern - it is far stronger than most other levels with higher innate burst, which is why I suggested some changes to the ailing MA4 and why I also noted that MA2 is causing concern. Also note that if MA4 and MA2 is also changed, he's better off using MA4 (+6CC) since the Jotum isn't capable of properly defending itself against it (MA1, MA3, MA5, i-Kohl, NBW, etc).

    Now, run the same numbers you did but use MA2 (+3PH) instead of MA3 :)
    Then run the numbers on a Magister or Sepulchre Knight attacking Achilles. Just don't assault him with a Montesa, pick easier targets to assault or do it with coordinated order so you get that burst and PH up a bit more.

    Uhhh... wonder what this does to the Igao. *shudders*
     
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  19. stargorger

    stargorger Well-Known Member

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    Now here's the question though: can we get it to ignore Symbiomates please? :)
     
  20. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I don't think you can SymbioMate to ignore a successful engage - it isn't an attack.
     
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