I think it's the weakest sectorial since Druze (which is maybe the weakest sectorial in the game.) Tunguska feels a lot more like an N2 sectorial in design -- it's much less flexible, with fewer link team options than most other new sectorials. The really strong parts of Tunguska are strong (superjumping missile), but the rest is kind of... meh? I guess to sum it up, the best parts of Tunguska are just plain better in vanilla. Some of the Tunguska units (puppet masters, for example) I don't think are even viable in Tunguska. The biggest thing you'll notice about Tunguska is that it's almost impossible to take more than one decent active turn shooting piece unless you play Securitate spam. All of the strong active turn SWC weapons cost 2 SWC in Tunguska (Hollow Men, Kriza, Sally). The ARO weapons all cost 1-2, so you're basically relying on that Securitate Feuerbach in most cases which is decent but not amazing.
Yeah, but if you put little enough LoS blocking terrain that you mess with the validity of chain rifles, you are also messing with Cautious Movement, breaker/viral pistols and Close Combat. I thought those were supposed to be valid tactical options: are you saying they shouldn't be? However, you do bring up a good point that terrain heavily influences how some factions and sectorials can function, and how "valuable" certain pieces of kit are.
This is an good argument. But still it is not as flexible, like a normal orderpool. Under ideal circumstands you free the way with the HMG, move the link with the Combi and do something with the NCO. I will have a better view on that in late Jan / Feb when I can get my hands on the starter pack ;-)
Looking forward to that. I mean, it's looking like I will need two IA starters (arm swaps for a Daoying shottie and Zhencha SMG), and I'm having a lot of fun coming up with list ideas right now. But I'm still going to hold off buying anything from CB until whatever that April release is. "Enjoy your armies while you have them" is not good marketing.
Most of the models are 1 wound, without proper support. Best point of tunguska is hacking. Your opponents usually either bring 0-3 hackable units or will be after yours one victory. Securitates while looking nice on paper are actually expensive, they pay for veteran which they never use. Tunguska has one of the best lt interventor, if you go forward with her, it is turn 3. Zondnautica are really niche unit. In result you end up with fragile list, with which it is nearly impossible to cover most of the support and classifieds. I played nearly whole autumn with tunguska and puppet master was must take. Because my lists were more then 10 orders. He provides either few DZ protection with smg and mines. Or controls puppetbots which are really annoying are are the cheapest and most mobile specialists. Also he is the cheapest non rem unit.
I feel like the consensus on the Druze subforums is that DBS isn't weak, it's just inflexible (which is the same comment being raised re: Tunguska). Druze can do ok at almost all missions, it's just that you end up building almost the same list every time no matter what you're playing. Giving them just a couple extra troop options would be great for unlocking alternate builds.
Maybe I should have phrased better -- the Puppet Master is great, but puppet bots are not so much. A Puppet Master Minelayer with no puppets is pretty much autoinclude if you have more than 10 orders.
The amount of times I see people make this claim... Veteran is dirt cheap, and it prevents your link from being broken by E/M and in the specific case of Securitate it prevents your Repeater and Hacking Device from being broken by Oblivion - one of the most potent AHD programs to use in ARO against Hackers - or E/M, since Comms Equipment break when Isolated. The reason you never use it is that your opponent opts to not use stuff against you that doesn't work. Already that's worth at least the single point (if even that) that the skill costs. Plus occasionally allowing you to save a major defeat into a minor during tournaments is not bad. I'd love it if my Celestial Guards had that skill instead of an extra point of CC.
I think you are wrong about the strong active piece units. TJC can easily fit Perseus, Securitate HMG, Zondnaut Spitfire, and a Heckler Redfury into a list. If you are worried about SWC, I have found Perseus is a great offensive piece for 0 SWC which you can use to allow for defensive options like the Grenzer ML. Fully linked Perseus shoots as strong as a fully linked Securitate HMG in most cases even at 32”. The closer he gets the odds favor him even more, he only gets B4 instead of B5, but ODD goes a long way in making favorable gunfights. I have found TJC to be very glass-cannony, but also extremely punishing to lack of MSV, and even if the opponent has some MSV options, we can white noise the threats. TJC has a giant weakness- Large Order group armies that will willingly trade pieces which TJC just can not do.
I really have to disagree strongly with @TaHu with securitate. I've used veteran with them too good effect on a number of occasions. Being immune to jammers(and EM) is really awesome, even more so now that both weapon types seem to be proliferating to more armies/lists. Maybe you're just an incredibly amazing player, but I occasionlly go into LoL. There is a significant difference with what I can accomplish with 2-4 regular orders and up to 4 command tokens, and just the command tokens. I split my LT about 50/50 between interventor and kriza, they both make good use of the LT order. I've had camo KHDs suicide into my interventor to go for a LT kill, especially turn 1. Kriza is a big threat and sometime people gun for him as well. Either LT choice is fairly glass cannon, they have a lot of powerful tools, but can pretty easily be killed by the correct units. (oni, Liu Xing, Fidays, ... Scylla...). One thing I've learned about Tunguska is that mutually supportive AROs is key. (its also a very hard skill to get good at). Set up especially if going second is very important for Tunguska you need to set up tools to limit damage. This also means playing AROs more aggresively then you would typically play in vanilla where you can just corner guard with morlocks. The inclusion of veteran adds some significant resiliance to your order pool. I do feel that Tunguska is very link focused... and some of the links seem a little dubious, biggest offender is the Grenzer core. But I do think that both a securitate focused list, or a hollowman focused list are very potent and competitive. Securitate are low enough SWC you can easily include backup hitters, perseus for up close and either a HMG or Feuerback at range (1swc) Kriza or Sally (2), Mary .5 (amazing hacker and good close range gun figher), Interventor .5. This puts you at 4 swc which still allows for the purchase of a red fury or spitfire on a decent unit, heckler/Zondnaut, and support like another hacker, or mine layer. You certaily can build more expensive Securitate links, but I think their strength is in a more aggressive role, using smoke and repeaters/white noise to deliver perseus, and gum things up with linked shoguns(exerting hacking influence). Of course the link is incredibly flexible in composition to meet mission needs, but perseus and one swc gun is a good baseline. Hollowmen are the list focus, like most (all?) HI links they are the focus of your list, so you don't have much backup if thing go bad, but even then you can make a pretty good list. This list covers many of the new secret orbjectives, and support the hollowmen link well with orders. The transductors and warcor serv a good speed bumps that can stop a rambo with some luck, or at least drain some orders. Hecklers are an unknown and are deployed as a deterrant to protect approaches to the link or objecives. The hollowmen themselves have B2 chaincolts, if a warband or ninja gets close it may be better to trade hits and end it, trusting to arm 4 and 2 wounds. Jurisdictional Command of Tunguska ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 HOLLOW MEN Missile Launcher, Chain-colt / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (2 | 35) HOLLOW MEN Spitfire, Chain-colt / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (2 | 36) HOLLOW MEN Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Chain-colt + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 37) HOLLOW MEN MULTI Rifle + Pitcher, Chain-colt / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 35) STEMPLER ZOND FTO (Super-Jump) Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 18) TRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) TRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) PUPPET MASTERS (Minelayer) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines / PistolKnife. (0.5 | 14) SALYUT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) MARY PROBLEMS Hacker (Forward Deployment L1) Submachine Gun + Zapper, Pitcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 30) GROUP 2 3 1 HECKLER Boarding Shotgun, E/Marat / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 19) HECKLER Combi Rifle, Jammer, 1 FastPanda / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23) INTERVENTOR Hacker Lieutenant (Hacking Device Plus) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 25) WARCOR (Sixth Sense L1) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3) 6 SWC | 299 Points Open in Infinity Army Tunguska's lack of traditional ablative armor makes them fall very outside the traditional sectorial mold. Their defensive game relies a lot upon aggresive AROs (with planned guts retreats), and changing up the ideal attack pieces, to force your opponent to waste orders. Hecklers are amazing at misdirection because they represent very different threats, countering an emarat, is different from countering a jammer.
There's really nothing in Tunguska that justifies a non-Securitate lt to me. They're easy to hide since you'll always take at least 3, and they're still WIP14 for God knows why. In that list you posted, anyone who is familiar with Tunguska profiles is going to drop in and gun for your interventor as soon as the see him on the table.
I mean, I think my opponents always assume that the Interventor is the LT, like always, even back during N2. They still don't always manage to kill my lt, it didn't happen here, and I don't think @WiseKensai is a bad player, and I'm pretty sure he knows about nomads. (it didn't happen here either, but the report isn't too detailed). Playing Nomads for ages, I've learned to accpet that we don't have CoC, and that useful lt choices may be obvious. LoL is no where near as crippling as it used to be, and I have learned how to make it really order intensive to get an LT kill. Admittely the new Liu Xing and the hack transport ARO timing will be a pain in the ass.
I wouldn`t make such a bold claim about myself. We will wee when I go to IP. I think the most effective link(of basic infantry) is stationary one. Your opponent has to spend A LOT of orders to get jammer to DZ and try it. And if he did - ok, he spent his turn isolating Or you can just safely take interventor or securitate lt, don`t use their order unless you really need it and have 10 orders each turn. I think that it is really unreliable strategy. ARO troops have low chances of survival and most of time odds will be really in favour of yor opponent. Besides flash bots tunguska has no cheap units you can spare. Even heckler, I think you can make more value out of him in the active turn.
Securitate + Perseus in many ways acts like an enomotarchos link. Between smoke and the ODD point man. It gets full core link bonuses which pushes perseus in a full core to levels that surpass most other myrmidons, and link CC bonuses only care how many other mooks are in CC, not how good they are. BUT its contigent on keeping your engagements controlled with your ideal point man, and yes, can be very vulnerable in reactive turn. For all this talk about how vulnerable Tunguska is to being rambod first turn, pushing perseus into your opponent with core bonuses is very effective. It can also be a pain in the butt to dislodge with ODD/Cover/linkbonus and repeater net. If you want to go play a defensive LI link, go play something else, you're right other factions do that better, Securitate get very aggresive link sub ins. (or go all out and do 2 securitate MLs + 3 securitate if you really want a road block, but its certainly not cost efffective). ARO is risky, I'm certainly not advocating being silly about it. Perseus can watch a lane 16 inches long with safety especially in cover. If you opponent does a wound he can fall back. Same with your other multi wound options. The idea is to limit your exposure to the shortest lane necissary. I'm certainly not advocating putting your TR bot on the top of the tallest building. I think people are right about tunguska being somewhat of a glass cannon, but I don't think that makes them a bad sectorial. They certainly are less forgiving of mistakes.
I feel like there's very few reasons to justify a non-interventor LT (I've only ever taken the securitate in hunting party). Assassinations in TG aren't terribly crippling (thanks to veteran) and the LT order is so useful for a free hacking buff or cybermask.
HB is great if you want to run an elite list, a spam/trading list, lots of camo, AVA 4 Ragiks for lots of AD, alpha strike lists, sledgehammer lists, tons of hackers, no hacking/hackable, can fit all sorts of specialists in, decent HI. About the only things missing are MSV2/Smoke combo, which people will always complain about and a TAG. I know people used to say that you should just do vanilla to do a better HB list, but with the AVAs and Fire Teams available to HB I don't agree with that at all.
Mostly all members have ODD unlike securitates. They also have more close range weapons which makes them better midfield, most of securitates swc weapons suggest staying in DZ. Raoul is better as AD trooper Perseus - maybe, won't lie I didn`t test him that much. Close combat is really rare in infinity, and his price is expensive in expensive sectorial. Grenzers are great. Missile and Sniper definetely prefer to be as far as possible. Spitfire and sensor are nice, but I find it is better to use other units for their roles. From what I see we just have different playstyle. Isn`t that what makes faction less competitive? Some people already agreed with me. While infinity balance is quite good some factions are a bit worse then others. Tunguska has less option for mistakes, few specialists in one list and is vulnerable to spam(which most of the armies try to take). LI hollow men were and to some extent still are one of the best LI options. However IA and possible OSS outmatch every other army with the ability to have more than 10 orders.
I can agree on different play styles. I can't really stand Bakunin, which is what I'm sure you're going to say is a "good" sectorial. I did make a big point about how Enomotarchos links are in many ways better, and in some worse. (Mrmidons also cost more sooooo thats to be expected). Myrmidons get Mk12s, spitfires, and a HRL for SWC options, Securitate get HMG/Feurebach/MSR, and spitfire grenzers. With 5 man link bonus and his native +1 BS over most myrmidons the breaker combi is putting out nearly as good or better shots then most those weapons in mid or close ranges. The boarding shotgun repeater is seriously good for helping to limit flanking options. I think you're pigeonholing the viable link options for securitate. I'm not sure I can agree with your assertion that not being forgiving = not competitive. Just because a faction requires special play, odd tactics, or good knowledge of the game, compared to something easy to pilot, doesn't mean that when well piloted it isn't good. I don't think tunguska is point and click like 8 kuang shi + a battle cat or rui shi. Or consider how steel domintates new players, but once counter tactics are learned, come back down to managable. I think Tunguska takes more practice and different tactics, I don't think that makes them bad. I don't think being easy to pilot is outcome determinative for being a good faction, and to be quite honest I don't think there are many sectorials I would point to in the game and say they are not good. (probably a few that need an update...)
