What constitutes a BS Attack?

The only things in the game with the BS Attack Label are Forward Observer, Triangulated Fire, and Deactivator. This label makes those Skills equivalent to BS Attacks: "The use of this Special Skill or piece of Equipment is a form of BS Attack."

Forward Observer is a bona fide BS Attack because it has that label, and that's the effect of that label. It reads "The use of Forward Observer is a form of Attack with a BS Weapon that uses the WIP Attribute."

Triangulated Fire works a lot like Speculative Attack, in that it's an Entire Order declaration that causes the trooper to resolve a BS Attack Common Skill. The first bullet says "Allows the user to declare a BS Attack with one of his BS Weapons against a target within LoF by making a BS-3 Roll..."

Deactivator is a lot like Forward Observer.

The Attack Label applies to BS Attack, CC Attack, Intuitive Attack, Place Deployable, Speculative Attack, and Suppressive Fire Common Skills; plus the Berserk, Explode, and Sensor Special Skills.

This label exclusively means you can only target enemies with those Skills: "The use of this Special Skill or piece of Equipment is considered an Attack. Remember that you cannot declare attacks against allies or Neutral elements, whether represented by Models or Markers."

Intuitive attack is weird, and I think it's been mis-written, especially compared to other rules. It should probably be re-worded to work like Forward Observer, but permitting the use of a weapon of your choice. Right now, there are four things in the rules that specify performing a "BS Attack Roll":

• BS Attack Common Skill
• Intuitive Attack Common Skill
• GizmoKit equipment Short Skill
• MediKit equipment Short Skill.

All of the rules references to "BS Attack Roll" in the book refer to executing a BS Attack Common Skill declaration, except for one each for Intuitive Attack, GizmoKit, and MediKit:

• The user may perform a single BS Attack Roll against the target.

• Used remotely, a GizmoKit is considered a Non-Lethal BS Weapon. If the user passes a BS Attack Roll, applying the corresponding MODs (for Range, Cover, etc.), the target will perform a single PH Roll.

• Used remotely, a MediKit is considered a Non-Lethal BS Weapon. If the user passes a BS Attack Roll, applying the corresponding MODs (for Range, Cover, etc.), the target will perform a single PH Roll.

Are we supposed to believe that Intuitive Attack, GizmoKit, and MediKit are uniquely divorced from every other part of the rules in treating a BS Attack Roll as "a Roll made to resolve a BS Attack declaration" or something? If so, on what basis?

Also, note that the rules I quote above all feature the Wiki linking, which connects "BS Attack" in "BS Attack Roll" with the BS Attack Common Skill entry.

If GizmoKit and MediKit benefit from the +3 BS Attack and +1B bonuses from a Core fireteam, on the basis that they're qualifying as BS Attacks, why is Intuitive Attack different?

I can't find a good justification for why Intuitive Attack should be the intended exception to the way everything else works. I also can't think of a reason why BS Attack (+1 DAM) should suddenly stop applying to a weapon just because it's being used for intuitive fire. Does a TAG's flamer just...lose efficacy...somehow when shooting into smoke?

I think Intuitive Attack involves making a (highly restricted) BS Attack. The other options are hard to swallow in context.

 

I'm currently focused on outcomes - consistency, fairness, playability, etc.

On this thread, I've taken a small number of stances:

• If you get hit by a BS Attack through a ZVZ, you get to shoot back (or dodge or whatever).
• If you fire the same weapon, it should always have the same damage value.

 

Not quite.

I state that Intuitive Attack isn't the skill BS Attack. It's definitely performing a BS Attack on the enemy. It just doesn't have the label BS Attack which is necessary for the bonuses to BS Attack skills.

 

I edited the message. Had to double back and re-check. Intuitive Attack doesn't have the BS Attack label, but it's still outputting a BS Attack on the enemy. Thing is, you need to use the BS Attack skill to get BS Attack specific MODs.

So the declaring trooper cares about what they declare to use in order to check what they MODs they get, and that is not a BS Attack skill (as in specifically the skill or a skill with the label that makes it that skill).
The targeted trooper cares about what is incoming, which is a BS Attack (as in "any old attack made at range").

 

On what basis?

 

Addendum question: Intuitive Attack says:

• The B will always be 1 regardless of the actual B value of the Weapon or any MODs applied to the B.

What applicable Burst MODs exist independent of a BS Attack?

 

Unfortunately, probably not, no. Forward Observer is its own Short Skill, and doesn’t fire a Flash Pulse weapon. Flash Pulse is just a BS Attack weapon option. Same as MediKit, GizmoKit, and Place Deployable, FO is a distinct thing to declare, so it can’t share a Coordinated Order declaration. You can definitely BS Attack in a Coordinated Order with Flash Pulse alongside other weapons; it’s right there in the rule examples.

 

I'm not making a new argument, I'm clarifying my argument because inane.imp had missed my intent. You can read the relevant rules here: https://infinitythewiki.com/Skills_and_Equipment_in_Infinity

You're declaring Intuitive Attack which is not the BS Attack Short Skill nor is it a skill with the label BS Attack. You get the burst bonus on your Kriza as little or as much as you do when declaring the Discover Short Movement Skill

 

Ughhh. This is related to two things: Infinity uses "skill" as both a class of ability, and as a replacement for "action/activity." And the aforementioned tomfoolery around "BS Attack" as an activity, a named skill, and a label.

First, the short answer:

The Coordinated Order rules specify that you have to declare the same Skills. Not the same types of actions, the same Skills. The specific rule reads:

Emphasis mine, and note that the "BS Attack" in "...in a coordinated BS Attack each participant must..." links back to the BS Attack Common Skill page.

If that's not enough, here's the extremely long answer. Warning, very long explanation incoming. Disambiguation is hard.

------------------------------------

First, let's add some ad-hoc definitions that are apparently RAI but not quite RAW, because it'll save writing later:

• BS Attack: The action of using a weapon or equipment to affect another model, when that action is declared as part of the BS Attack Common Skill, or any skill that specifies the trooper performs a BS Attack, or any Entire Order or Short Skill declaration using a Skill or Equipment with the BS Attack label.
• BS Attack Label: A label that specifies that a Common Skill, Special Skill, or use of Equipment counts as a BS Attack for the purposes of MODs and rules affecting BS Attacks. Not a prerequisite for counting as a BS Attack; note the BS Attack Common Skill does not have this label, for example.
• CC Attack: The action of using a weapon or equipment to affect another model, when that weapon or equipment specifies use in CC.
• Place Deployable: The action of using a weapon or equipment that has the deployable trait, placing it on the table so it may interact with the game's other elements.

Attack-related Common Skills:

• BS Attack Common Skill: A Common Skill that allows the trooper to perform a standard BS Attack using a Short Skill/ARO declaration. Note that some Weapons and Equipment require declaring a different Common, Special, or Equipment-related Skill; any Weapons or Equipment that don't have a corresponding specialized Skill declaration may be used with the BS Attack Common Skill. Rules here referring to "BS Attack" refer to the activity described above. Rules referring to "BS Attack Common Skill" refer to this Common Skill.
• CC Attack Common Skill: A Common Skill that allows the trooper to use a Short Skill/ARO declaration to perform a CC Attack.
• Intuitive Attack Common Skill: A Common Skill that allows the trooper use an Entire Order Skill declaration to perform a modified BS Attack when Line of Fire is blocked by a Zero Visibility Zone or a state (such as Camouflaged) that normally prohibits BS Attacks, using a weapon with the Intuitive Attack trait.
• Place Deployable Common Skill: A Common Skill that allows the trooper to use a Short Skill/ARO declaration to perform the Place Deployable action with deployable weapons or equipment.
• Speculative Attack Common Skill: A Common Skill that allows the trooper to use an Entire Order Skill declaration to perform a modified BS Attack without Line of Fire, using a weapon with the Speculative Attack trait.

BS Attack-related Special Skills:

• Forward Observer Special Skill: A Special Skill that allows the trooper to use a Short Skill/ARO declaration to perform a modified BS Attack with the Forward Observer Technical Weapon.
• Triangulated Fire Special Skill: A Special Skill that allows the trooper to use an Entire Order Skill declaration to perform a modified BS Attack.

BS Attack-related Equipment:

• Deactivator: A piece of Equipment that allows the owner to use a Short Skill declaration to declare the Deactivator Short Skill, and perform a modified BS Attack with the Deactivator Equipment.
• GizmoKit: A piece of Equipment that allows the user to use a Short Skill declaration to declare the GizmoKit Short Skill and perform a modified BS Attack with the GizmoKit Equipment.
• MediKit: A piece of Equipment that allows the user to use a Short Skill declaration to declare the MediKit Short Skill and perform a modified BS Attack with the MediKit Equipment.

------------------

OK, now for the reasoning/implications:

...

BS Attack (the action) as distinct from the BS Attack Common Skill exists largely because of the first Requirements bullet of the BS Attack Common Skill:

• Be using a BS Weapon, or a Skill or piece of Equipment capable of making a BS Attack.

CC Attack (the action) is the same, based on the CC Attack Common Skill's first requirement bullet:

• Be using a Melee Weapon, a Skill, or piece of Equipment that allows for a CC Attack.

So we have the basis for differentiating the activity from the specific Common or Special Skill declared.

...

Weapons are either BS Weapons (used for BS Attack actions), CC Weapons (used for CC Attack actions), or Deployable Weapons (used for Place Deployable actions) and the Skill declaration used to invoke the BS Attack, CC Attack, or Deployable placement is only relevant when the Skill declared says so.

It's worth examining why:

Weapons are BS weapons by default (there is no BS weapon trait), so the only thing preventing any weapon from being used in a BS Attack is if it literally doesn't have the feature set for it, or if the rules say otherwise.

CC weapons are just weapons with no range bands, template, or Targetless trait (meaning they'd have to be used in silhouette contact to reach the target) and that have the CC trait, which allows you to use the weapon in CC Attack declarations with any Common Skill or Special Skill that permits making a CC Attack. Pistols are BS weapons that are usable in CC, but they're listed as CC weapons colloquially, so we can be certain that having the CC trait is not an obligation to use the weapon in CC.

Deployable weapons have no range bands, no template, no Targetless trait, and no CC trait, but they have the Deployable trait, so they are useless for BS Attacks, can't be used in CC, and meet the prerequisite of the Place Deployable Common Skill. If you have them, your only option to use them is the Place Deployable Common Skill.

...

Certain weapons have weapon chart profiles and are functionally BS weapons, but they have specific Special Skill or Equipment entries that imply you can't use them when declaring the BS Attack Common Skill:

• Forward Observer is a Special Skill with its own technical weapon profile, which is in the Weapon Chart; the existence of the Forward Observer Special Skill strongly implies that you can't use the BS Attack Common Skill to declare a use of the Forward Observer technical weapon.
• Flash Pulse is a BS technical weapon in the weapon chart, and there is no Common Skill or Special Skill that stipulates its use, so it defaults to being usable with the BS Attack Common Skill or any other Common Skill or Special Skill that permits you to select your BS Attack weapon—you can Triangulated Fire a Flash Pulse, or use it as the weapon of choice in a Coordinated Order declaration of the BS Attack Common Skill.
• GizmoKits are a BS technical weapon and have an entry in the weapon chart, but their equipment entry specifies a Short Skill for their use, and the BS Attack Common Skill is a Short/ARO declaration. Much like Forward Observer, this strongly implies that you have to declare a GizmoKit (Equipment) Skill instead of the BS Attack Common Skill to use a GizmoKit.
• MediKits are a BS technical weapon and have an entry in the weapon chart, but their equipment entry specifies a Short Skill for their use, just like GizmoKits. For the same reason, it's strongly implied that you have to declare a special MediKit (Equipment) Skill instead of a BS Attack Common Skill to use one.

Deployables are worth comparing to GizmoKits and MediKits, in that they're often Equipment. In contrast to GizmoKits and MediKits, though, the deployables specify using a Common Skill for their use:

• Deployable weapons have entries in the weapon chart, and the Deployable trait, so they meet the requirements for use with the Place Deployable Common Skill.
• FastPandas are Equipment and have an entry in the weapon chart, and the Deployable trait. Their Equipment entry specifies that you use the Place Deployable Common Skill with them.
• Deployable repeaters are equipment with no entry in the weapon chart, the Deployable trait, and their Equipment entry specifies that you use the Place Deployable Common Skill with them.

If Forward Observer is intended to be used with the BS Attack Common Skill, it wouldn't be a separate Special Skill, it'd be a Weapon with State=Targeted in the profile. It's a Special Skill, and has the BS Attack label, but that doesn't make it an instance of the BS Attack Common Skill, just a BS Attack (the action).

...

Does any of that help at all?

 

Intuitive Attack says the burst is always exactly one, so whether or not you're applicable for other burst bonuses is moot.

 

DAM bonus, then. Or +3 attack. Etc.
The specific MOD isn't important, it's the condition under which you gain the MOD.

 

Intuitive Attack instructs you to make a BS Attack, so I would grant a TAG its +1 DAM bonus when using its heavy flamethrower to shoot a camo marker.

 

Which is the core of the issue.

The rules for modifiers inside rounded brackets state "A positive MOD (+) in round brackets next to a Special Skill, Weapon, or Equipment will be applied only to the user of that Special Skill, Weapon, or Equipment" and Intuitive Attack is not BS Attack nor is it a form of BS Attack according to labels.
The rules as written are incompatible with generalised bonuses to entire classes of attacks, even if that is the intent. Basically each skill that isn't BS Attack has to have the BS Attack label and even that is somewhat questionable. It's similar to how a Su-Jian gets +1 B when using their Heavy Shotgun - not for carrying it!

So in your opinion, a Kriza Borac or Octavia has B2 on their Discover checks? (Unfortunately, Discover doesn't use BS attribute, but a Guided Discover would've been hilarious)