I don't think proxys are unbalanced because they eat up points. No longer being able to take 2 orders from 1 combat group lists really gave them a bonus but I'm sure there are units like that in other factions as well
Nope, they’re pretty unique. And I haven’t seen a single trooper in the game, that doesn’t come with a point cost. But usually, when you pay 10 points, you get a pretty uninteresting BS11 Line Trooper, with PH you get a V:NWI, Mimetism, BS13, WIP15 Doctor, with a few extra benefits - that is about as balanced as the Titanic.
Except it's not 10 points for all that. It's a minimum of 20. You do get a second profile, but that's still a single order, no ability to coordinate or use both in ARO (simultaneously) and are more vulnerable to isolation than your average trooper. They may not be completely balanced, but you are not giving them a fair comparison in what you say.
Before HSN3 Posthumans were already very good, though people tended to look over Mk.3 and Mk.4 in favor of specialists, and those two competed agaisnt other useful units as well. HSN3 made them better across the board, and remaining drawbacks are minimal. Now PH are the closest thing to autoinclude in this game (with Ghazi being very close second) and I think they really should get a point or SWC cost increase, if their current rules are here to stay.
I think, I’ve given some pretty fair comparisons in this thread, but the point seems rather moot. If people don’t want to admit to their favorite toy being out of balance, then so be it - but I’ll continue agreeing with my opponents on the subject, whenever I pound their face in with my posthuman.
Sorry what? 20 points for FOUR effective WOUNDS and two positions on the table, a doctor who can heal herself, a WP15 FO with forward deployment... You know what 20 points will buy you on other factions? A Zero on Nomads, a Foxtrot on Ariadna... but no NWI model (much less two). Oh, and heavy weapons for the base Fireteam: Core troops on any faction, yeah. And they can participate on coordinated orders, one at a time. There were no Mk4 before the Posthumans went to count as a single model... back then the "combo" was Mk1 doctor or engineer (14 pts I think, with the hacker on 18) and mk2 (I don't remember if she was more expensive than nowadays). As for the SWC increase, that would kill them a lot, since SCW is already one of the biggest sinks in Aleph (followed by points, but that's true across all factions). I would suggest that posthumans take 2 slots in a combat group, regardless of how many you bring (so you will have a top of 9 orders for that group, and the difference between 2 and 3 posthumans would still be 10 points at a minimun), and maybe give the mk3 a less SWC intensive profile option (like 0.5 SWC Mk12) so you can have a HI that is neither a character, nor the Asura, nor eats a full third of your SWC.
I was thinking about something along the lines of 0,5 SWC increase on Mk.1, Mk.2 hacker and Mk.5. This would make them more difficult to fit, but not to the point of breaking the lists. Yes, Aleph is SWC-intensive, but we're getting a lot of value and utility even on units without SWC cost. As for Mk.3 and Mk.4 less SWC-heavy loadouts would be great indeed. Mk.3 with Red Fury for 1/1.5 SWC, for example. Mk.4 kitted out for CQB, with Heavy Shotgun and Pulzar for 1 SWC. I don't know about other players, but I'd field those.
Mk4 already has an SMG with the Heavy Rocket Launcher, so... and a Pulzar would really be bonkers, she's WP15 already! XD The problem with the +0.5SWC increase in the mk1, mk2 and mk5 is, simply put, the rest of Aleph units. A Marut is already 3 SWC, if we add the mk4 proxy we have 1 SWC already for the rest of the army... which means the only heavy weapons we can access are 1 Deva Spitfire or 1 HMG Dakini (or the Thorakitai, but... not vedic), or 1 Danavas and we have 0.5 SWC for something else (like an assault hacker in the middle of the field). It doesn't look like much, but we are talking about "if you pick an mk3-4, then you will pay as much SWC as a Marut" most of the time. Sure they are great, but overnerfing can kill anything... which is why I like more the "posthuman takes 2 slots" option. That and the unique choice, consequence of "how much do you think an order is worth, in points?" ^^
The problem is: You don't get a order with the proxy. I mean, you get a order with the first model, but any other does not bring extra orders. Not even impetuous or irregular orders. There must be a point discount for that, but yes we can agree that the current discount is a tad on the too much side. It is probably one of the hardest rules to balance how much it should cost/discount. And last it was looked at was on the transition from N2 -> N3, where a lot of other factors on the Ghost: Jumper rule got changed too. So it is basically a "new" rule that turned out to be a bit underpriced, just like Jammers for example. Corvus Belli tends to be pretty good at adressing these sorts of issues, but it takes time. They have a *lot* of issues to address, and each one of them takes time and playtesting to get it done. And some of them affects much more than a specific model on a specific faction - see all the changes to TAGs on Season 8 and 9 for example.
Oh, please. If you pay 50 points for a model, you only get one order too, yet people still pay those points for a single model. What they don’t get is such a huge pallet of skills, endurance and function. A posthuman is one trooper, it takes up one slot in a combat group, regardless of proxies, it deploys as one, and so allows you to keep up to three models in reserve. It is made of pure win and priced as a line trooper.
The thing it does that annoys me the most, as a non-Aleph player, is it allows you to have a TO sniper waiting hidden while still having its order available.
While Posthumans could be slightly increased in cost, I think they are balanced fine at the current setup. Not by themselves, but by the faction they can be used. As a whole Aleph is a high-price faction that suffers extravagantly for high price on limited utility skills (high WIP and MSV being the worst offenders) or common hard counters (NWI). Add to this REMs as basic troops (awesome, but extremely vulnerable to hacking) and overall lack of cheap troopers, Aleph needs something. As has been mentioned, large part of Posthuman discount comes from the fact that they only ever provide 1 Order - and in an Order starved faction you are still paying lots of points for that one Order - and only one ARO. ARO problem might not seem as bad as you can avoid placing them in situations where both will have an ARO, but it is actually something Aleph players needs to always keep track of and ensure it is so.
As I see it the discount for being a PH proxy shouldn't be higher than cheapest proxy. Right now this discount is around 20 points and with cheapest proxy at 10 points it makes cost of the posthuman with two proxys at the worst case equal to alternative to PH unit, with one additional body practically for free. And this discussion is showing exactly why I stated that I hope vedic sectorial won't have posthuman - we are supposed to discuss Vedic sectorial and yet we are talking mostly about posthumans. I don't want more posthumans in Vedic, I want more vedic in Vedic!
Sadly, I think "Vedic" will be the player's name for the Operations SubSection, the same way the Steel Phalanx/Greeks is the player's name for the Assault SubSection. Why? Well, in few words: only the Posthumans would be left out of both the greek and the vedic sectorials. Add to that how Vedic is unlikely to get smoke, and the more relevant fact that we might be looking at the last Aleph sectorial, and I find kinda unavoidable the inclusion of posthumans in Vedic. I'd like an Asura character, however. With 4-6 arms and named Kali :p
I, on the other hand, hope they'll end in the OSS. I like that unit. The fun part is that the sectorial is almost finished. When I'm playing vanilla I'm keeping the Greek units out, and I have no trouble with creating a viable, competetive list. I think we can expect 1-2 more units, various fireteam options and some new loadouts (hopefully complete with fixing the Asura hacker), and that's it. I'd prefer not to get characters, though - I like the idea of black ops squads of generic robots and androids, whose closest thing to name is the serial number. Makes for a nice contrast with highly personalized SP.
Indeed, the Asura has little use as a hacker with Bit&Kiss around (and other Maestro users, but those are all inside Aleph...) since the Danavas was released. Mind you, there will be a need for a MSV long range unit (since aside from the Marut, all "vedic" MSV have combi/spitfire range!). I hope the dakinis will get modified loadouts, a K1 sniper for 1 CAP (or K1 combi + tinbot for 0.5 cap) would be very welcomed, specially if we receive the "mirror" of the Unidron fireteam (1-5 Dakinis, 0-1 Deva without devabot, 0-1 Danavas, for example). Oh, and I almost forgot... A "K-9 unit" would be awesome! And I'm not talking about antipodes, but a controller with 1-2 syncronized melee troops (kinda the surya beasts from Tohaa) with AM1 (no guardian please... just limit the amount of tables we need to keep track of), since Vedic lacks any kind of melee unit...
Mk.4, Dakini, Garuda and Zayin have HMGs. Mk.2, Dakini, Nagas and Dasyus have MSRs. There's also HRL on Mk.4 Some sort of heavy anti-TAG/SHI weaponry is needed, though. I'm expecting Feuerbach, access to Missile Launcher and Panzerfaust on some unit would be great, too. Current unit lineup leaves a niche for a dedicated AT unit. Let's say something similar in concept to Tsyklon, but trading mobility for durability. MOV 4-4 | CC 8 | BS 12 | PH 11 | WIP 13 | ARM 3 | BTS 6 | STR 2 | S 3 | AVA 1(3) G:Remote Presence, Repeater, Marksmanship L1, Electric Pulse Feuerbach, Nanopulser 1|34 Multi Rifle, Panzerfaust 0.5|29 Heavy Shotgun, Blitzen 0.5|25
