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What Are ARO pieces & Defensive Fireteams? A new player wants to know.

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Azuset, Apr 3, 2019.

  1. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Neither of these are armies that traditionally excel at direct AROs or in the case of ISS, the standard defensive fireteam.

    What they both do excel at is indirect area control and pressure. In vanilla YJ, you get Kuang Shi and Shaolin Monks to guard your DZ and push up the table with chain rifles (and when well deployed, the monk's smoke will protect him and a kuang shi), and you have tools like Madtraps, Libertos, and Guilangs to control the middle of the table. The best direct ARO in vanilla YJ is probably Lunah or maybe the Yan Huo Neurocinetics missile, and both of these pieces have no response to smoke.

    ISS is the same but even more pronounced. AVA8 Kuang Shi (as well as Kuang Shi being linkable) means you'll almost always have a huge pile of Kuang Shi in your DZ, and almost always have a couple of Madtraps from somewhere to guard them. The best direct AROs are maybe the Bao MSR (but then you have a Bao Core and that's not good) or maybe the Wu Ming HRL (and then you have a Wu Ming core, which is good, but a lot of points)?

    In both cases, YJ and ISS tend to play the reactive turn by hiding, controlling the table indirectly, and giving the enemy tons of models it needs to run through to actually make a dent in their order count.
     
  2. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Seconding the earlier posts, Yu Jing and ISS have some of the weaker distance ARO options - the main reason I play aliens over Yu Jing in fact.

    As a new player I reckon your not doing yourself any favours playing sectorial. Sectorials are limited, which can make them a little easier to understand in terms of attacking the opponent, but you will find it harder to play around their weaknesses. Plus link teams are pretty confusing too. With only one game so far you shouldn't be worrying about the advanced rules!

    In Vanilla Yu Jing, these profiles stand out as some decent ARO choices for me, but Yu Jing experts might have a more informed opinion.
    • Warcor: 3 point speedbump. It will always die, but if it can slow the enermy at all you've come out ahead. And at 3 points who cares if you screw it up.

    • Total Reaction REM (Husong): Total Reaction is a specific form of ARO with certain strengths and weaknesses. Don't think just because it gets full burst that it is automatically a star ARO piece. Low BS, a larger base and weakness at dodging plus a vulnerability to hacking makes this a pretty strong option for direct gunfights that gets countered by a variety of asymmetric plays. Camouflage troops, especially infiltrators in the middle of the table, will prey on these. But traditional gunners, some dude with a heavy weapon and good stats, don't want to approach.

    • Major Lunar: Camouflaged ARO are another beast. If a sweeper crosses the table to eliminate her, and fails the discover, he's wasted his turn. Lunar is not particularly strong or efficient, but having a camouflage ARO option is a sweet addition to Yu Jing.

    • Libertos (Minelayer): A mixture of chain chaff and a weak camouflage ARO, and can place mines to further delay the opponent.

    • Daoying MULTI Sniper (Minelayer): Another camouflage option, but this one can place the mine somewhere to be a decoy ARO piece.

    • Hac Tao Missile Launcher (or HMG): You go balls deep on a very expensive ARO piece and either win big or go home in tears. The missile is all in on the ARO plan, but the HMG can cover a minor lane and then go on the offensive as a general combat unit. As a new player this profile is probably not a good idea, because if you make a mistake you will lose over 60 points.

    • Sun Tze (Standard): Expensive tough strategos, but one opponent taught me that he is also a total immunity, mimetism WIP 17 flash pulse. The likelihood that he will go down to a sweeper attack is quite low.

    • Yan Huo Invincibles: Most of these options can fill an ARO role. I personally prefer camouflage modifiers on my ARO pieces, but a BS 14, ARM 5 dude with a burst two missile in a corner can be an effective deterrent, and the others are less deadly ARO but can bring crazy firepower on the offensive.

    • "Flash Pulse Bot" (Chaiyi): The 8 point REM with a flash pulse is commonly used as a cheerleader, but I've seen these poking their heads out for annoying ARO. If you can place it in a piece of terrain in particular it becomes a total PITA to remove, especially for its 8 points.

    • Guilang (Particularly Minelayer): Most midfield skirmishers can fill an ARO role mainly through the use of mines. The Guilang is one of the better skirmishers in the game so you should be taking them anyway.

    • Kanren: Madtraps and a chain colt let him fill a chain chaff type role quite effectively. I feel he is too expensive for that role personally.

    • Shaolin Chain Rifle: Solid chain chaff. Compared to other chaff they lose dogged (boo) but have a strong CC attack for actually doing damage (chain rifles are inefficient in certain ways when used offensively)

    • Kuang Shi: Order generators with chain rifles? Thats always a very strong combination.
    The standouts, for me at least, are the Warcor, Libertos, Chaiyi, Guilang Mines, Shaolin, Kuang Shi. All of these are more area denial (ie mines, chain rifles - locking a small location) or are low cost, low power distance ARO. Yu Jing doesn't have any really stand out distance ARO aside from maybe the Hac Tao if you know what you are doing. Though TR REM are certainly worth using and getting a feel for, as they are a flexible and interesting unit.
     
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  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    That said, sectorials will also provide rules that make individual units stronger and as such be easier to play with. Regardless of whether these rules are difficult or not, they are rules you have to learn. Additionally, it's not like ISS is "limited". It's got way more options than Tohaa and is easily the sectorial that offers the most options and greatest variety of troops, regardless of whether none of those troops are TAGs (that game's least necessary troop type)

    Look into Authorized Bounty Hunters and CSU - these will provide a diverse backbone that will simultaneously force you to play more similar to vanilla units and teach you essential bookkeeping (ugh...). Sforza is also easily the strongest solo you will have short of Sun Tze (whom in and of himself can be an "ARO sniper") and make sure to always bring Zhang and spread his sticky pals out so they don't both trigger on the same enemy.

    Seriously, ISS is a great place to start out.
     
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  4. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    I would almost never waste someone's camo by AROing. Once they reveal, however, it's a definite possibility to stay on the table and use that -3 (or even the Ninja's -6) MOD for AROs.



    • Warcor: 3 point speedbump. It will always die, but if it can slow the enermy at all you've come out ahead. And at 3 points who cares if you screw it up.
    Always a good option.

    • Total Reaction REM (Husong): Total Reaction is a specific form of ARO with certain strengths and weaknesses. Don't think just because it gets full burst that it is automatically a star ARO piece. Low BS, a larger base and weakness at dodging plus a vulnerability to hacking makes this a pretty strong option for direct gunfights that gets countered by a variety of asymmetric plays. Camouflage troops, especially infiltrators in the middle of the table, will prey on these. But traditional gunners, some dude with a heavy weapon and good stats, don't want to approach.
    What makes the TRbot a 'good ARO unit' is that they don't suffer the huge burst penalty that AROing usually inflicts.

    TRbots are the traditional 'first hard to deal with' item. They are screwed as soon as someone can throw a -12BS mod on them, and that's not hard. Camo, Surprise Shot, Cover, and -3 range is all it takes, because they're also -6 to Dodge that shot (-3 for being a REM, -3 for Surprise Shot)!


    • Major Lunar: Camouflaged ARO are another beast. If a sweeper crosses the table to eliminate her, and fails the discover, he's wasted his turn. Lunar is not particularly strong or efficient, but having a camouflage ARO option is a sweet addition to Yu Jing.
    As I mentioned, I don't think that revealing a camo'd trooper to ARO, especially when it's a limited camo model, is a good idea. There may be some specific tactical situations where you need to reveal in order to stop a Rambo, but you are giving up your strongest tool, Surprise Shot, to do it. Keep that in mind.

    So I'd use Lunah specifically to shoot someone important in my first turn, then use her as an ARO piece since she can't recamo anyway.


    • Libertos (Minelayer): A mixture of chain chaff and a weak camouflage ARO, and can place mines to further delay the opponent.
    I very much agree with this. Mines are very useful (especially in Objective Room missions).


    • Daoying MULTI Sniper (Minelayer): Another camouflage option, but this one can place the mine somewhere to be a decoy ARO piece.
    Again, camo units aren't really good ARO options if they're still hiding under a marker. Once revealed, though, that's much more viable in my mind.


    • Hac Tao Missile Launcher (or HMG): You go balls deep on a very expensive ARO piece and either win big or go home in tears. The missile is all in on the ARO plan, but the HMG can cover a minor lane and then go on the offensive as a general combat unit. As a new player this profile is probably not a good idea, because if you make a mistake you will lose over 60 points.
    Hidden deployment is the exception to my usual reservations over camo'd AROs. It's more often worth the loss of Surprise Shot to have that ARO from hell say hello. Still not a reversal of my general aversion to using a camo'd unit in ARO, though.


    • Sun Tze (Standard): Expensive tough strategos, but one opponent taught me that he is also a total immunity, mimetism WIP 17 flash pulse. The likelihood that he will go down to a sweeper attack is quite low.
    Very true. I don't entirely like the idea, because he's also your LT, but Total Immunity means he's ARM6 and can face-tank a missile launcher; plus NWI means he has 3 effective wounds and can face-tank a missile launcher twice.


    • Yan Huo Invincibles: Most of these options can fill an ARO role. I personally prefer camouflage modifiers on my ARO pieces, but a BS 14, ARM 5 dude with a burst two missile in a corner can be an effective deterrent, and the others are less deadly ARO but can bring crazy firepower on the offensive.
    I really don't like the 2xML.

    It can't take a linked Kamau MSR in either Active or ARO.


    • "Flash Pulse Bot" (Chaiyi): The 8 point REM with a flash pulse is commonly used as a cheerleader, but I've seen these poking their heads out for annoying ARO. If you can place it in a piece of terrain in particular it becomes a total PITA to remove, especially for its 8 points.
    Another good Cheap Chaff, just remember that the changes to Total Immunity mean that you cannot blind nasty things like Dogs to stop them.


    • Guilang (Particularly Minelayer): Most midfield skirmishers can fill an ARO role mainly through the use of mines. The Guilang is one of the better skirmishers in the game so you should be taking them anyway.
    Use the mines to block people, don't waste your Surprise Shot from the Guilang itself.


    • Kanren: Madtraps and a chain colt let him fill a chain chaff type role quite effectively. I feel he is too expensive for that role personally.
    MadTraps make a useful chaff role, but try to keep the Kanren itself out of LoF.


    • Shaolin Chain Rifle: Solid chain chaff. Compared to other chaff they lose dogged (boo) but have a strong CC attack for actually doing damage (chain rifles are inefficient in certain ways when used offensively)
    CC is something that takes lots of practice to get good use out of.

    X-Impetuous is something that takes a lot of practice to use.


    • Kuang Shi: Order generators with chain rifles? Thats always a very strong combination.
    Another good option, and same comment about X-Imp as the Shaolin.
     
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  5. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

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    Can you give me some examples of how sectorials make a unit stronger? You can use ISS as an example :)

    The one thing thats come to mind is availability. Is there anything else?
     
  6. Lieutenant

    Lieutenant PanOceanic Dabbler

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    Sectorials allow the use of fireteams which grant members strong bonuses such as +1 burst and +3 BS
     
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  7. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    There can also be some synergies between "standard" (available also in vanilla) and "foreign" (units from other armies or from mercenaries, but available in this particular sectorial). Or profiles unique to sectorials.

    For example, Asuras in vanilla Aleph are considered overcosted for their benefits. But in OSS, there are L2 lieutenants profiles that are far better cost-wise. On another hand, Marut is considered better in vanilla than OSS because of smoke (and overal better support for the bunny girl and AVA3 netrods). Sorry i dont know ISS very well so i can't give ISS examples.
     
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  8. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    To add to what @Lieutenant has said, Sixth Sense N2 (granted to all fireteams of 4 or 5 members) allows to ignore certain tricks performed by the enemy.

    For example:
    A Wu Ming Fireteam of 5 (2x HRL, 1 DUO, + 1 Tinbot + 1 Zhanying (madtraps) deploys, Zhanying as leader totally hidden, and the two HRL ones exposed in cover to draw ARO. This Fireteam pretends to hold in turn 1 and maybe turn 2, and advance in maybe turn 2, but surely in turn 3.

    The enemy is a bunch of nomads who drop smoke thanks to Jaguars, Morlocks, or McMurrough, and then will use said smoke as cover for their Intruder HMG to take potshots at your Wu Mings.

    The Intruder is Burst 4 rolling at 13+3-3 (range, cover), while your Wu Ming are B2 (link 3+) Fire 13+3+3-3-3 (range, link 5, cover, mimetism), so it's B4 at 13 Vs B2 at 13 (or dodge B1 at 13).

    If the Wu Ming were unlinked, the Intruder would be B4 at 13 Vs Unlinked!Wu Ming's BS13+3 (range) -3 (cover) -3 (Mimetism) -3 (Surprise Shot) -6 (Returning fire through a Zero visibility Zone) so B1 at 4 because the top minus is -12...

    Please do note that the enemy Intruder is focusing in a single HRL because only those attacked can fire back, if he were to spread his Burst and attack both HRL (bad move, because it's very risky and the most likely scenario is for one Wu Ming wounded and the other intact), then it would be B2 HMG BS13 of the intruder Vs TWO B2 HRL BS13... So the smoke is used in this instance to engage only one single enemy.

    Vanilla Vs ISS:
    • ISS only smoke source is the Wu Ming Kuang Shi controller (0.5SWC), Vanilla has the much cheaper Irregular Extremely Impetuous Shaolin Monks
    • ISS can link a Hsien in a Haris, for B5 HMG at BS 14 shooting through smoke...
    • Vanilla has the Invincible troops, including a camo Lt2 and the Mowang (which can use those Lt orders)
    • ISS has access to Aleph Troops (Sophotect, Garuda, Dakini).
    • ISS can link 4 KuangShi to avoid them being send into a suicidial charge.
    • Vanilla has access to common merc troops (Libertos, Aida Swanson, Krakot, Monstrucker)
    • Vanilla has Guilangs, Daofeis, Hac Taos, the ninja.... ISS has one ninja and the Kanren as midfield troops
    • ISS has no tag (Show of Force mission)
    And more, but those are the most evident.
     
    #28 xagroth, Apr 10, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
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  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    What @xagroth wrote, though I'm sure he meant "Celestial Guard with Kuang Shi Control Device" as the only smoke source and not "Wu Ming Controller" since Wu Ming doesn't have any controllers :) (at least not that we get to play with in game, they do have an explosive necklace)

    Also, because these are fairly important;
    • ISS has access to additional Authorized Bounty Hunters and can form them as Fireteam: Duo to move them across the table faster; these are a cheap way to project board control and if you're lucky they get ODD in which case they become very strong indeed
    • ISS has access to Corporate Security Units (vanilla does not) and can form them as a Fireteam: Duo to move them across the table faster; these are a cheap way of getting acceptable specialists up the table and can handle themselves in a firefight significantly better than the more expensive Celestial Guards
    • ISS has an additional Su-Jian and can form them as a Fireteam: Duo to move them really stupidly fast across the table; combine the Spitfire with the Heavy Shotgun for maximum effect, use the Spitfire for advancing with the Shotgun for close and dirty work and don't be afraid to Cautious Move 8" when necessary
    • ISS has access to Lucien Sforza, one of the most interesting and powerful mercenaries out there; pretend to be a bunch of Celestial Guard extras to hide the Ninja and a Garuda or have him be a Sun Tze body-double, Sforza is capable of challenging just about anything and can even glue McMurrogh in a pinch!
    • ISS has increased access to Yu Jing Remotes; much like Pan-O, these define the way the faction work.
     
    #29 Mahtamori, Apr 10, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
  10. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    As @xagroth mentioned, Sixth Sense L2, which is the important part in ARO*. 6SL2 lets you ignore Surprise Shot/Attack, so a Core fireteam member left exposed for AROing can't be Ninja'd.

    * I consider 6SL2 to be more important than the +1Burst bonus, at least in ARO.
     
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  11. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

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    This is such a beast of a thread for me. :D You guys are great.

    There is a lot to digest here. I will be playing my second game tonight. It will be a 300pt YAMS 1.1 game. YAMS seems to be a fun way to play. I picked it because I read many comments to start learning the game with that rather than ITS.

    I will be implementing as much as I can from this thread. I decided on playing ISS. They are the biggest reason I picked Yu Jing as a vanilla faction.

    I don't want to derail the thread but I must know about picking merc's for armys. I'm still a bit blurry on how that works. I say this because the army builder stacks rules. What I mean by that is that if I pick vanilla Yu Jing I will see profiles with fireteam options and vanila factions can't use fireteams.. That is fucking confusing when you are just learning the game. Thankfully, this great community cleared it up for me.

    For an ITS game, can I use any option for mercs that show up on the army builder? Or does the event have to have the "soldiers of fortune" rule?
     
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  12. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    You can use the Duo rules with the hacking program "TeamPro" that requires an EVO remote... hint: rarely worth it.

    You have certain mercs always available in Vanilla, and ISS has other mercs as well. To add those you need nothing, just make sure the NA2 Soldiers of Fortune check is OFF in the army. If it's on, you need to play a game with the Extra "Soldiers of Fortune", or your list won't be valid.
     
  13. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    Be careful, you have 2 cases. Some sectorials have access to "mercs" in their regular army list, that is, without the NA2-Merc option checked. With that option checked, you have additionnal options that needs Soldier of fortune (army validator will tell you). And thus, some armies can very well take the same type of mercenaries twice, once with their regular option and once with Soldier of Fortune. For example:

    Imperial Service
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]3
    WARCOR (Sixth Sense L1) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)
    WARCOR (Sixth Sense L1) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)
    WARCOR (Sixth Sense L1) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)

    1 SWC | 9 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    You'll see the first warcor is a regular one, and the other two are soldiers of fortune. And the validator will tell "List is correct ... only with the Soldier of Fortune extra". And that's why the list cost 1 SWC - Soldier of Fortune SWC cost.
     
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  14. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

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    I had no idea what this option was for. That was a big help!
     
  15. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

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    Last nights game was a lot of fun. I was able to use some of the tactics everyone has been teaching me on this thread.

    We played YAMS so the objectives where random. I really enjoy this system. I learned early on that my opponent who played HaqqIslam
    was after my flag. This was very helpful. I won the initiative role and took deployment. HaqqIslam went first. As stated in this thread Yu Jing does well holding up on and being out of LoF on the reactive turn. I did as much of that as possible until I was able to thin the heard enough to take safer AROs.

    I kept my fire team core in a defensive position in one of my corners with the Harris team positioned above them in the same area with a better field of view. I made sure to put the Harris in prone in the reactive for the first two turns. With my core team in a really good position not having to cover a large area of fire. I was able to draw Haqqislam closer to me. This made my active turn very productive. This was also a pro tip on this thread.

    My biggest hickup during the game was deployment. My opponent made his infiltration role with two units and as was able to get some shots off at my core and Kung Shi right way. The Kung Shi never got an active turn and neither did Rui Shi. Lucky for me my dice went in my favor with my core team and all I lost where two mad traps due to boost. If I had lost a unit there the game would have been a different outcome.

    That missile launcher was probably the VIP of the game. My opponent didn't bring anything to deal with it. Next up was probably the Hsien because of his MSVL2. Even with just a Multi rifle he was able diminish Haqq's order pool.

    My ninja was able to make a clutch move. A haqq unit with a heavy flamer move passed it and I was able to engage from hidden deployment. This was great because that unit was about to pin me in my corner and I assume I would have lost some units/orders having to get him out of his position. This was what opened up my side of the board so I was able to move out and score the rest of my objectives.

    The end results was Yu Jing 4 vp Haqqislam 1 vp.

    Here is what I brought with me. I had on experiential idea of how this list was going to play out. I just wanted to try some fire teams.


    Kore Hariz v2
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]3
    CRANE IMPERIAL AGENT (X Visor) Spitfire, 2 Nanopulsers / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 54)
    XI ZHUANG Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, MadTraps / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20)
    CELESTIAL GUARD (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    CELESTIAL GUARD Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 21)
    CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1 | 20)
    WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]4
    NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29)
    ZHÀNYING (Fireteam: Haris, Sensor) Breaker Combi Rifle, Nimbus Grenades / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 27)
    ZHÀNYING Missile Launcher, Nanopulser, Nimbus Grenades / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 28)
    HSIEN Lieutenant MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CCW. (+1 | 57)

    7 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
    #35 Azuset, Apr 11, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
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  16. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, learning to deploy well is a very important (and difficult) skill to learn for Infinity.

    Glad you had fun and some good success despite the problems!
     
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