Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Mahtamori, Jan 9, 2018.
I thought Stunned was a pretty nasty effect to begin with:
Not really, because you have to hit with B1, then bypass BTS. If you can both hit and bypass some defense, you have a more lasting effect that is also pretty nasty on most of the minis: normal ammo causing 1 wound which render most opponents unconscious.
Why would you bother trying to stun when you can, with about the same chances (because you will often have either DA on ARO, or more burst on active), cause 1 wound ? Stun is effective on ARO vs multi wounds/nwi rambos that can't be stopped by just one wound, and that's about all. (and even for nwi, since many stun weapons are in fact multis, you're better using shock or DA and try to kill it once and for all).
Because your Flash Pulse has much better range bands than your Combi/Multirifle.
Flash pulse is a different mater ! Stun ammo are rather underperforming. Why do you use flash pulse ? Because they are usually:
1. cheap (warcor ? 8 pts mimetic rem ?)
2. technical weapon (wip 13+ vs bs 11)
3. range, maybe (the 2 former points are already good reasons even without range)
But these attributes belong to the weapon, not the ammo. You are not using flash pulse because flash ammo is fantastic, but because the weapon is good.
Take a multi rifle. Would you use the stun ammo ? In most cases, no, because shock or ap are better in active, and da is better on reactive. The only case (in normal game, i'm not talking about some objectives) is when you face a rambo heavy hitter, you know you will have only one chance of stopping him before it is too late, and you have better chances of landing one stun than 2 wounds.
In a way, stun ammo is not bad, the problem is mostly that if you can shoot it with stun, you can also shoot it with something more lethal and kill it. You can't really use stun ammo to weaken a target before trying to kill it, because flash/stun grenades are rare and does not allow targetless throws, only speculative - better use smoke in most cases.
Stun is awesome against models you can't hope to reliably kill, but want to take out of the equation. It can stop a TAG or assault HI in their tracks, forcing the opponent to lose orders and risk another piece, or take out that really nasty, durable and hard to shift ARO unit. Like Swiss Guard, or Jotum. And thenm you can kill it much more safely and reliably.
Stopping a big rampaging model is pretty much what i was saying.
But you say "then you can kill them more safely", but how ? If you're stopping a model from rampaging, it means you are on reactive. The stun effect last until the end of the current turn, and that does not prevent your opponent to hide his mini.
Unless you want to use stun on active turn ? Do you REALLY want to risk your stun wielder (so usually a multi weapon, meaning a not so cheap mini) and one of your order with a B1 attack vs something that will likely one shot your mini ? If you're on active turn, better use any form of smoke or heavy weaponry. Smoke is less risky because you will probably use it from out of lof. Heavy weaponry will have a greater burst and will most probably win face to face.
And once again i'm talking about STUN, not FLASH and especially not flash pulse. Flash pulse isn't good because of flash, it is good because it is cheap, widely available, use WIP and can stop any miniature of the game with very modest models. Stun is far less available, is usually on expensive miniatures, and said miniatures have often better weapons/ammo both in active and reactive.
Back on track.
I would to see some kind of LMG for LI. Cause all these HMGs in 5 Mant link teams are just too brutal. Say its DAM 13 HMG range bands.
More Silent Weapons. We need to see a Silenced Pistol for sure.
Maybe Silenced SMG or Combi. Thats make sense a lot.
I liked idea of Fire Grenade. It would be fun if Effect stays there for a turn as well (like Smoke)
Snifer Grenade Laucher. Cause Guided stuff need more love) .
Some More Multiweapons for HI and TAGs. (Give the Anaconda 6-4 Move and MultiSpitfire)
That's exactly the purpose of it though, and sometimes it's the best option even when we are talking about units with fancy Multis.
That said, I think Stun's value will be diminished on CCWs.
Stun is okay in reactive turn, but often dubious in active unless there are meta reasons it's better to stun target (as in: consing only an irregular order you'd have to use somehow anyway; having a good range/vector to the target unlike your heavy weaponry you don't want to risk at the time etc.).
Melee is not great in reactive unless you're already Engaged at the beginning of the turn. But then being Engaged is already a powerful disabling factor and time waster. Leaving juicy enemies engaged already does the trick, and they can even kill themselves trying to get away if engaging model is a good CC unit. Meanwhile poor CC units are not going to get awesome results with CC weapon either way.
Perhaps Stun CCW would be a decent "win harder" option when you absolutely have to stop some big rampaging asshole and already accomplished something by engaging it, but that's it.
Oh, and it can be really great on dual-wielding CC troopers.
@Nenyx: I was talking about uses in different turns. I agree that the occasions that Stun is better in Active Turn are few and far between, but I also think that it depends a lot on the delivery system. When using MRifle AP or Shock are better most of the time. But if you have access to Stun Grenades or LGL, it might change the equation a bit.
Actually, Stun DTW could work well. Neural Disruptor, Sonic or Microwave Emitter, that kind of thing.
Problem is that stun grenades are rare and need a target, so smoke is often a more efficient way to weaken or remove a threat.
Stun or flash DTW could be nice indeed.
@Section9 mentioned this earlier in the thread, but non-lethal ammo types could get a pretty significant boost simply with more mission support. Essentially, more missions like hunting party.
I thought that originally. Having pseudo-hackers that had like one time use grenade packages. But the more I thought about it the more it seemed like a pitcher to me and that wasn't reall the route I was thinking.
I was thinking more along the lines of less intense EM grenade. Like its a small device that just creates static on communication and information bands And I always liked the idea of messing with a units ability to coordinated by jaming or disabaling comms equipment. And other than hacking all you really have is EM, which to me as all very specific, as in I want to hack this specific unit or I want to throw an EM grenade at this clump of people and just completely shut them down (or not if you fail or they succeed BTS). I think there is a lot of tactical options in the middle ground using the ECM type thing. Like generating area denial, messing with someone remotes, or with the proxies making it so they cant be jumped into if they are under the effects of the ECM, denying an enemy ITS mission objectives, not being targetable by smart munitions, etc.
I was thinking roll as grenade. Crit doesn't do anything. Target(s) can dodge as reaction and if succesful can move their distance. If that puts them out of the zone of effect then good for them. If not, then they have to make an unmodified BTS roll.
Also anyone that starts their turn in the zone has to make a BTS roll.
Assault shotgun .
B: 3 Range: like any shotgun Dam: 14 Ammo: DA Traits: SWC expensive
I need this, i just do
I have opinions about the ammo, but I don't think it'd cost SWC, regardless of ammo.
DA might be going overboard, it's six potential wounds to anything under the template (I'm assuming it'd keep the teardrop). Shock, though...
And the followups:
MULTI Shotgun: basically a Boarding Shotgun with either B2 AP/Shock or B1 DA (no teardrop) modes.
Shotguns using Nanotech or Breaker ammo are also a possibility.
Maybe if it was more like a slug (so no template)? Or give it two modes:
Ammo: DA / Shock / Impact template
Sorry, meant it to mean only DA, no teardrop.
From near combat thats B3 mod+6 with DA, it HAS to be at leas 1swc, its too powerful to be less
Sabin76 option looks great
Well, shotgun rounds are so big you could load them with basically anything...
Again, the "HMG" of Infinity is a case of translation gone south.
In Spanish original rules, it is "ametralladora", which traslates literally into "machinegun". Note that it is not "ametralladora pesada", "heavy machinegun".
In WW2 terms, "heavy machinegun" was usually belt-fed and tripod-mounted: too bulky to be fired on the move, and operated typically by a crew of 3-5 men (one shooting it, the other making sure it is properly fed with ammo, the rest being primarily there to carry stuff - on the move, one would typically carry the gun itself, the other would be carrying the tripod mount, and in case of Maxim-derived designs, there was the heat sink to carry as well. And lots, lots of ammo belts making thel oad for the rest of them).
In 21st century terms, "heavy machinegun" is typically a weapon of 12,7mm / .50 caliber (or even bigger), big enough no-one ever considers it being fired on the move, and preferably kept mounted on a vehicle.
What we see on the tables, is actually what we cal an universal / general purpose machinegun. Still an ugly beast, it uses full-power rifle rounds (roughly twice as powerful as an assault rifle's intermediate round) for superior range and ability to penetrate cover. Compared to infantryman's rifle, it is big and heavy, but one soldier can carry and use it all by himself (though he's often assigned an assistant, who carries extra ammunition and supplies, like spare barrels). M60, M240 / GPMG / FN MAG, PKM are the most common modern-day examples of that class.
Then you have your LMG - in Infinity, it is called Spitfire. A smaller, lighter alternative to the venerable general-purpose macihnegun, it trades range and penetration for a smaller, lighter, more easily handled package (typically it uses same intermediate round as infantryman's assault rifle). M249 / FN Minimi is the most popular model, though Russian RPK pattern has its merits, too.
A light weapon capable of sustained fire over HMG ranges - no such thing RL, AFAIK.
And be glad we have no automatic grenade launchers in Infinity. I guess a HI could be enough to swing such a monstrosity around, and TAG would defnitely be a proper solution for its mobility. I'd say it would be, effectively, a Burst 3 Heavy Grenade Launcher!
Don't get me wrong, I know that Stun has its uses. Sometimes this may not be obvious,, but they are still there. Stun is pretty good for example as a more reliable way of stopping a werewolf rampage.